Rifle Manufacturers Proof Groups

14 March 2009, 16:21

Does anyone know how most rifle builders fire their proof groups? Machine rest or traditional sand bag setups? I recently got in a pissing contest with a rifle builder whose groups for my custom rifle (416 taylor) we're bigger than the Moa standard I specified. His answer was to use machine rest to send me a group that met my standard. What do you guys tnink? George

14 March 2009, 16:31

Rodney H.{500Jeffery}

I would have thought that the larger manufacturers used some type of machine rest or jig of some sort in a mass production style set up. And the smaller custom makers would use a more personal approach either sand bags, lead sled or something of the like. Just guessing on this, but it is what I was led to believe. Rodney.

14 March 2009, 19:23

GeorgeS

I don't know that most rifle builders even shoot groups to prove accuracy.

Assume that your rifle builder is not as good a shot as you are, unless he has some BR credentials.

That rifle of yours may require some handloading to bring out peak accuracy.

George

14 March 2009, 19:26

packrattusnongratus

Isn't minute of cape buffalo in the boiler works pretty good? Packy

14 March 2009, 21:50

tiggertate

It's hard to say from the limited info in your post but one MOA is pretty easy to achieve from a hand-held position. Are you using the same load as your builder? Have you tried more than one load? Can you shoot one MOA with other guns of similar "felt" recoil? A lot of folks can't at first; some can't ever.

I'm not challenging your position, just looking for more info. If the answer to the questions above is yes, then you may have a ligitimate gripe.

15 March 2009, 03:14

studdog

I also paid the builder to develope loads. When he sent rifle he sent four groups. The best was 1.23 inches the others 1.5- 1.8. I specified MOA or better or I wouldn't have hired him. He gives me big lecture that 1.23 was good enough for a dangerous game rifle but says he'll give it another go. I had to send the rifle back for some cosmetic problems cause by shipping. He fixes cosmetic issues and sends rifle back withmachine rest group of .83. This was the same loading as before.

15 March 2009, 03:20

studdog

I have not shot the rifle yet. Ammo on its way, My 375 HH shoots bullet hole on bullet hole at 100 yards from a normal sandbag rest. Maybe i'm being a prick. On this forum, if you guys think I'm unreasonable I'm sure to here about. I know I have to shoot it. Maybe the gubbuilder is a shitty shot but I doubt it. George

15 March 2009, 03:50

Duane Wiebe

I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate, but something I always have to weigh. I use Kreiger barrels and they require about 20 shots to break in...then...start shooting groups.

Look at Kreiger's break in schedule, and you'll be spending the better part of a day just to get to the "group" part.

Most guys just aren't willing to give the maker a carte blanche on range costs for some thing they will be repeating anyway...Of course, if you agreed to such costs (several hundred $$$) , your complaint is certainly valid.

On big guns, I shoot in the irons with the stipulation that I may not see the target EXACTLY like the client...this is off sand bags. So far, works for me and client....

15 March 2009, 04:24

RIP

So the gunsmith was distracted first time around.
He has to make a living, has some time pressure, if he is any good.
I know I can shoot as well as a machine rest if I take my time.
And you wanted him to develop loads and break the rifle in too?
Where is the fun in that?
Is that part of his usual plan?
Or did you pay a bunch extra for pampering?

Back in the old days when CZ supplied test targets with their factory rifles, they usually ranged from 3/4 MOA to 1.5 MOA for 3 shots at 100 meters, and had the signature and date by the shooter, or machine-rest operator, whichever, matters not IMO.

I always looked inside the box before buying and have a collection of those 3/4-MOA-ers, and the 1.5-MOA-ers usually got rebarreled.
And some of those 3/4-MOA-ers became 1/3-MOA-ers in my hands.

Just before CZ stopped putting targets in the boxes, the range became 50 meters, and 3/4" three-holers were rare even then.
No more test targets since CZ-USA?

15 March 2009, 04:35

Buliwyf

Dear RIP,

You got any targets you have shot to back up your big talk? I'd like to see something on the order of a .416 Rigby and a .375 Weatherby from huntin rifles like a Ruger or Winchester. Not some fancy shmancy 1000 yard custom rifle with a brake.

15 March 2009, 04:38

RIP

Buliwyf,
I have posted plenty of those targets that meet your criteria.
I am famous for ugly rifles, huntin' rifles, and only need a brake for 1400-grain slugs over 1400 fps in a 12.5# shotgun.

Do a search and post them here for me, please, I have better things to do, thanks.

15 March 2009, 04:46

Buliwyf

Ha ha. Thought that would get a respone. Yes sir, I've seen those targets. I especially like the one from 'ole purple. I'll have to decline your invitation to search.

15 March 2009, 04:56

Macifej

My last Weatherby came with a target and had a note Leupold 45x written on it ...seems they're using big glass to verify the rifles performance before shipping.

15 March 2009, 04:59

Macifej

quote:
Originally posted by Buliwyf:
Dear RIP,

You got any targets you have shot to back up your big talk? I'd like to see something on the order of a .416 Rigby and a .375 Weatherby from huntin rifles like a Ruger or Winchester. Not some fancy shmancy 1000 yard custom rifle with a brake.

Like These ...??

15 March 2009, 05:17

Michael Robinson

studdog, JMHO, but I'd try shooting the rifle before raising any hell about it.

15 March 2009, 06:17

lavaca

Last custom rifle I had built, a .416, he gave me a target that was a 3 shot, less than an inch. That doesn't impress me. I have no idea whether it was a machine rest lead slead or whatever. But the rifle shoot's a whole lot better than that.

15 March 2009, 18:53

Scrollcutter

Weatherby uses big glass and a short range...lol!

They're range is only 90 yds.

17 March 2009, 01:49

eurocentric

1.23" while shooting off-hand in boiling heat and swirling sand at a buff 75 yards away? that would be amazing indeed and a damn good shooter.

quote:
Originally posted by studdog:
I also paid the builder to develope loads. When he sent rifle he sent four groups. The best was 1.23 inches the others 1.5- 1.8. I specified MOA or better or I wouldn't have hired him. He gives me big lecture that 1.23 was good enough for a dangerous game rifle but says he'll give it another go. I had to send the rifle back for some cosmetic problems cause by shipping. He fixes cosmetic issues and sends rifle back withmachine rest group of .83. This was the same loading as before.

17 March 2009, 02:18

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by studdog:
He gives me big lecture that 1.23 was good enough for a dangerous game rifle

He was out of line - the ONLY time the lecture would have been topical would have been BEFORE he started

quote:
Originally posted by studdog:
sends rifle back withmachine rest group of .83. This was the same loading as before.

Mission accomplished - the RIFLE can shoot MOA or better. Its now your turn

opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com

19 March 2009, 00:51

studdog

Jeffeosso, I have no problem with that. Off to the range. Minor problem A squared ammo I order won't feed in rifle! This looks like it's going to be a real project. George. The saga continues.

19 March 2009, 01:22

jeffeosso

a2 ammo SUCKS
if you dont' roll your own, call superior or qual-cart

IIRC, a2's spec 416t doesn't jive with ANYONE else's spec.. i doubt it fits the chamber

19 March 2009, 04:46

MARK H. YOUNG

George,

I wish you had asked me before you started this project as I think I could have helped you avoid a bunch of headache. Anyway you have some good advise there about using Superior. Your A Square ammo may not be causing the feeding problem but it certainly could be.

Good luck!

Mark

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