Pfeifer,
Thought I would take your suggestion to start a new thread to see if I could get any input from anyone who might have had a Bowen rebore done. How is the accuracy on these usually?

Your idea on the CZ 550 is good, but I wouldn't want to start from scratch with a P-14. Especially since I have a CZ 550 action lying fallow, as well as an unfinished custom walnut stock originally meant for a BRNO ZKK 602. A laminate or a McMillan synthetic would also be appropriate.

470 Mbogo has created his own version of this cartridge. We could look up his reborer, or maybe he could tell us whether he thinks the rebores are worthwhile compared to a rebarrel. How has the accuracy been with your rebore .470 Mbogo?

I would sure like to visit the Bowen folks and see what I could glean from them before commiting.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-09-2001).]

RAB,

I spoke with Bowen about this conversion because it was so inexpensive (around $ 500) and so intriguing. They perform a lot of these (reboring) conversions on the rather pricey Mk II Magnums and also on the No. 1s so if it were common to have ruined barrels I expect that they would have gone under long ago. Maybe not, I dunno. I have always had the same concern. I don't like the heavy barrel on the Rugers but a bigger rebore sounds really appealing. I have even thought of reboring the lighter barreled 375 to a 416 Rem mag for a more handy rifle. Bowen will also rebarrel on request but I was very negatively impressed by their recommendation for a sight to replace the gorgeous integral express arrangement on the factory Ruger barrel. They suggested an old Winchester get up that sounded downright tacky, if practical. No thanks. Given that I have a nice Brno that is in the midst of transformation into either a Lott or G&A (still can't decide) I need a .475 Rigby like I need several holes drilled in my skull, but thats the way of gun lust! (Particularly big bore lust!) LaBounty apparently handles all the reboring, but I don't know that for certain.

Harald,

My CZ550 is being re-chambered to 460 G&A right now. Originally, I thought very hard about going to the Lott but decided on the 404 based case - really - because I like the looks of it better. To me, it just makes sence to have a rimless cartridge in a mauser type rifle.

Both the Lott and G&A are ideas I wish I had first!

When the rifle gets back and I shoot it some I'll let all of you know how it goes. And with the gunsmith's permission, I may even put his name in the post too.

regard,

redleg

Redleg,

Thanks, man! I agree the .460 G&A looks better. I'm leaning that way too partly for aesthetic reasons. And while I know that umpteen thousands of .458 Win Mags have been fired with perfect success I still don't like a cartridge that headspaces on a piece of metal much smaller than the almost non-existant shoulder on a .400 Whelen.

But if I already owned a Magnum Ruger or if I didn't have either one and just wanted a big bolt action bruiser, you can bet that I would be thinking real hard about a practically unique rimless 475. That is equally sexy and its a nicer rifle than my Brno.

The problems I have with the Bowen conversions are:

1. I don't like the Mark II Ruger safety. It's hard for me to positively get my thumb on it, and I would not want to have to look down at the wrong time.

2. The factory Ruger stock does not fit me well. If I am going to throw out the stock, I might as well rebarrel instead of rebore. But since it will cost me $1400 for the Ruger action in that case, perhaps I should upgrade to a Grantie Mountain Arms action.

3. The 505 Gibbs model only holds 2 in the magazine, and I would prefer 3.

However, the stuff on their site looks real nice.

Harald,
If LaBounty is doing the rebores that might be an 18 month wait. ???
If Bowen was suggesting a Winchester rear sight on a rebarrel, I would hope it could only be the Pre-64 .458 express style, I like those.
The shoulder of the .400 Whelen is totally inadequate, but the belt on the .375 H&H based cases is a clean 90 degree stop and works fine on some of our most revered cartridges, like the .458 Lott/Watts and the world dominating .375 H&H, doesn't it?
That .416 case necked up to .475 has it's appeal though. Neck it up to .458 and you have the Dakota round, which might be better due to a greater diversity of good bullets.
Nothing wrong with the .460 G&A either, for the same reasons, though pressures could be lower with the same performance in the .450 Dakota, with the bigger case.
I just wish the .416 Rigby had been a little bigger and would neck up to .510, but I consider .475 the biggest the Rigby case would allow.
Post some more about your Namibia trip. Congratulations. I will be right nextdoor in Botswana soon. I hope I have something to tell about when I get back.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

500grains,
O.K., you don't like the Ruger. They work fine for me. That integral rib and Ruger scope mounting system would sway me towards the Ruger. Also I find their safety just fine, as I do the stock. Are you eight feet tall with a size 16 glove? That might explain the 14 pound .470 Capstick. I will let you know if I ever get to chronograph some 600 grain Capstick loads with RL-15.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-09-2001).]

RAB

The Ruger stock just doesn't come up right for me. And the safety is hard for me to get a positive thumb hold on.

My preference is a Buehler style wing safety on the right side of the bolt.

I have also seen some poor wood to metal fit on recent Rugers. I think I would choose my particular Ruger carefully. It looks like the managers need someone to get after them a bit.

However, I think Ruger made a wise decision in building an action for the Rigby rather than for the 416 Rem. I would like it if they chambered it for 500 Jeff and 505 Gibbs (with deep magazine boxes for at least 3 rounds). The public needs more access to big bores, even if they are a style that is not my preference.

RAB,

I think Bowen is pushing the Pre-64 Winchester express sight. I couldn't remember the details but that sounds right.

I readily admit that my aversion to the belt is purely irrational, like my aversion to spiders crawling on my naked skin. However, at least the .375 has some body taper.

I think Bowen will also build a .450 Dakota (or .450 Rigby) but they don't advertise that as such since its proprietary.

On the subject of my recent safari, I have written over 20 pages so far and I am only up to day 3 of the hunt! I just got my slides back today and they came out really well but some snafu occurred at Fuji and apparently they didn't digitize them as I requested so it may be a while yet before I can upload photos to my website. But I promise in due time to have a full blown Namibian Safari page with all the details, photos and a link to download the unexpurgated long version if anyone wants to read that.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 06-09-2001).]

Harald,

I'd love to read the unexpurgated version. Don't give up!

Don

RAB,
I'm glad to see this posting and that there is indeed some interest in it!

470 Mbogo - Would love to hear from you about your creation.

I have Hamilton's email address somewhere. I will email him iwth a link to this posting and ask him if he'd be willing to answer a few questions. He's a neat guy who share our common love of guns with big holes in the barrels!

Also I suspect that the rear sight Bowen was referring Harlad to was the pre-64 Win M70 "African" sight that Jim Wisner (Precise Metalsmithing Enterprises) makes. I have one and I will probably use it on a .450 Alaskan on a Siamese Mauser that is in the shop. It is a neat little sight - very stoutly constructed. My only complaint is that it is only .5" wide and I wish it was a bit longer making for more of a qtr rib appearance.

Jim Wisner truly is a master with the Enfield conversions and their associated metal components. A friend of mine has a couple of Enfields in .416 Rigby that Jim has built for him and they function just beautifully. Jim is presently building him a .505 Gibbs on the side :-). This is what I was alluding to in that last post was given the two finsihed products, is there advantage of one over the other - Enfield vs Mauser? The Enfields are sure nice and long.

I have a copy of a two-part article that appeared in the ACGG journal that details Jim Wisner's process for converting the Enfield actions. There is alot of work that goes into these. He told me that he did a large lot of them awhile back. I believe they are all sold as of last year.

...Anyway RAB, I'd love to see that CZ-550 become a .475 Rigby if you are leaning that way! :-) I don't have a copy of Ken Howell's Case Forming Cartridges book...if someone does, Is this .475 Rigby in there??? Also Hamilton may be able to supply dies off the shelf for this puppy.

Jeff P

PS: Hope everyone here has seen the Sigarms reintro of the "Original" Magnum Mauser http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/mauser_magnum1.htm
This is being made in .450 Dakota and .500 Jeffery among others :-)

500grains,
So you would go for the Ruger if it was chambered in .500 Jeffrey or .505 Gibbs? Me too!

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Harald,
I can't wait! Be sure to keep us informed when the pic's and text are ready. Did you take your photos with a 35 mm? I'm taking an SLR with a telephoto lens and the standard lens as well as one of the 35 mm idiot proof cameras. This camera thing was done on another thread, but I already have my serial numbers on the customs form for guns and optics. Counting the days.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Pfeifer,
Thanks for all the info. That would be great if Hamilton Bowen could tell us the turnaround time on the .475 Rigby and maybe some references regarding the accuracy of the rebores on the fat barreled (.810" at the muzzle) Ruger Rigby.
That Wisner sight you speak of is the one I put on my .510 JAB on a BRNO ZKK 602. I also have the same rear sight on a .460 Weatherby BBK 02. I use the NECG Masterpiece front sights with these. Works for me.
I have a Ruger No. 1 and a CZ 550 in .416 Rigby, so I wouldn't mind sacrificing old Eleanor Rigby for a hotter number. The CZ 550 action lying fallow is destined to be a .585 Nyati.
I didn't know about Ken Howell's book. I would love to get a copy of that too.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-10-2001).]

RAB,

I did use an SLR, a Canon EOS-3 that I bought so I could still get autofocus with my 300 mm lens and 2X extender at f8. I highly recommend Fuji Provia 100F slide film over any print film (you can order it from bhphotovideo.com if its not available locally). This has the finest granularity figure of any 35 mm film on the market and rich color saturation. A good cicular polarizer filter and a plain clear filter to protect your lens would also be a worthwhile investment.

That Magnum Mauser is a beaut, but if I had that kind of dough I'd buy a double! Rimless used to mean affordable! Man, things sure have changed in 100 years! Of course there is still that bastion of working class capitalism, Czeska Zbrojovka! God bless the Czechs! Great vacation spot, too!

Hey Guys,
I did email Hamilton Bowen the other day with a link to this posting, so maybe if he has some time he will share his thoughts with us.

BTW: I found a reference that I wrote down about that two-part article on Jim Wisner's conversion process for the Enfield actions. It appeared in issues #79 & #80 of the "Gunmaker" (the ACGG Journal). Reprints and back issues are available from their website at:
http://www.acgg.org/pub.html

From what I remember it is very detailed with drawings and steps necessary for different big bore cartridges for proper feeding. I also received my vintage copy of "The Amateur Guncraftsman" by James Howe over the weekend. An interesting and "practical" book with conversion notes on the Enfields. I'm still looking for a good reasonably priced copy of his "The Modern Gunsmith" two-vol set. I have my eye on a couple at the moment. :-)

Looks like I just need to pick up a (couple!)CZ-550 for this project!

RAB - Sounds like you like this Wisner African sight alot...That is a good feedback. When I bought the one I have and took it down to the shop to my gunsmith, everyone there loved it! My gunsmith just thinks it's the cat's meow...Maybe I can get some shooting time on it this fall! :-)

WRT Ken Howell's book...There is a spot on the AHR site ( www.hunting-rifles.com ) that talks about it ($59.95 + S/H) but Ed Plummer returned a recent email inquiry about it saying that he is all out of them and thinks it might be a while before the next book is out (Sinclair Intl says Ken is working on another follow up to the first book). I will ask a friend who has a copy of Ken's book if the .475 Rigby is in there.

Jeff Pfeifer

Pfeifer,
Thanks for the info. I forgot I have a third one of those Wisner sights on a .358 Shooting Times Alaskan. They work on small bores too.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

Hey guys,
I got a reply from Hamilton Bowen from my .475 Rigby email to him a few days ago. He apparently has been out of town. He answers a few of the questions we asked in this email. Anyway here it is below:

Dear Mr. Pfeifer:

Thanks for yours of 9 June--been out of town hence the tardy response.

I am not sure who 'we' is as I am not especially computer literate and do
not peruse the internet but I'll be happy to answer any questions I can
about the .475 Rigby which we have called the .470 NE No. 2 to avoid any
encroachment on the Rigby trade name.

I'll have to confess at the onset that we have yet to do the first of these
here and offer it upon the recommendation of my friend Cliff LaBounty who
does our reboring. Our version of this cartridge is nothing more than the
.416 necked to .475 with no other changes. This enables us to use .416
guages and reduce costs somewhat by comparison to the other conversions
(such as the .470 NE No. 1) because the serious work consists of a rebore,
reneck and rethroat with no rechambering, rebreeching etc.

We have access to a couple of the original guns but I have not yet had time
to fiddle with them and have no data at hand just yet.. The whole point is
to reproduce .470 NE balistics and offer a .458/.475 size cartridge on the
M77's, easy enough to do with all the capacity and a tough gun. With the
advent of the .450 Dakota, this may be a moot point although a .458 version
of this .416 Rigby (as distinguished from Rigby's .450 effort which, if
memory serves, is a bit short in the body to produce by direct rechambering
of a .416) would be as simple a conversion to do.

In any event, hope that this will be of some help. Feel free to contact me
with any further questions.

Sincerely yours,

Hamilton S. Bowen
Bowen Classic Arms Corp.

His email is bcacorp@mindspring.com if you'd like to email him. I normally don't like to post emails but his is listed on his catalog so I don't feel too bad about it in this case.

Regards,
Jeff Pfeifer

Pfeifer,
Gosh darn it! They are still looking for their first customer for the 475 NE No. 2?
Maybe it will be me.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

RAB,
I have another friend with a Ruger Magnum MKII in .416 Rigby (new ligther model) but his is really accurate so I don't think he'll go there! :-) We have been talking about this round though.

Jeff P

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
[B]Pfeifer,
R.A.Berry/Pfeifer,
Sorry I've been missing this post. I've been working out of town and had a couple days of standby. I'm in a cyber cafe in Grande Prairie Alberta that's about an hours drive from Pouce Coupe the home of baby 375. If your interested in a 470 I have the reamers and headstamped brass. I can send you the reamer if you want to rechamber to the 470 Mbogo. The accuracy with my rebored barrel by Cliff LaBounty has been excellent. I was lucky that the turn around time was very quick. About 6 weeks. I understand that this is not the norm for Cliff but the job he did was very good. I was able to drive down and meet him pay him ahead of time and return to pick up the barrel. I wanted to keep the quarter rib and the good looks as well. I wasn't so lucky with another re-boring company with the Ruger #1 and the barrel was lost. He said that the barrel was hardened to different specs at the muzzle and throat areas and that it caused his reamer to chatter and the barrel was destroyed. A new barrel was put on and the quarter rib was transfered and as the pictures on the sight show it turned out really nice. I would check on the success rate for rebores on the Ruger barrels with the company that you are thinking about dealing with and then go with your guts. Pfifer I will be back home by the 20th of this month. If you want to contact me then I'll be more than happy to answer any questions that you have. I don't know if you've gone through my site or not but if not it will give you a lot of information. The address is www.470mbogo.com
There is also an article on Comparing the Big Bores that you should find very interesting. 470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
I also have the headspace gauges for the 470 Mbogo. The rifle I'm shooting now is built on the CZ550 action with a Pac-Nor barrel and a fiberglass stock from MPI. This is a very reasonable way to put together a 470. Brownells have the action, I think the barrel was around 250-300 US and the stock was around the same. The stock does take a bit of work as it's made for a drop box magazine rifle period. I did the glass bedding and fitting myself so I'm sure a real gunsmith would have a much better turn aroun time. The magazine box capacity with the CZ550 is better than with the Ruger. The Ruger will require the follower to be widdened at the front because the Mbogo case is wider up in the shoulder area and this will allow the cartridge to lay lower in the magazine box. You will get three in the magazine box with either gun but the
CZ will push down a good 3/8 of an inch with 3 cartridges in the magazine while the Ruger will be some what tighter. 470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo,
Your wildcat makes a lot of sense when you consider the nomenclature of the 475 Rigby versus the 475 NE No. 2. Yours has class and plenty of whomp and whump I am sure.

The fickle wind is blowing me back toward the 585 Nyati. I have a 470 Capstick in the works, but I will keep the 470 Mbogo on the back burner. I would rather follow your lead than do the Bowen thing I do believe.

Are the set of dies and reamer available for purchace from RCBS and JGS?

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
R.A.Berry,
The dies are available from RCBS and the reamer is available from JGS. If you rebore and rechamber and want to order your own reamer ask them to make the .466 pilot longer than normal. The reason for this is when the Mbogo reamer goes into the 416 Rigby chamber it is actually going to start removing material before the standard pilot engages in the bore. This means that the barrel and the reamer must be set up exacly true to each other. With the extended pilot engaged in the rifling it will make the set up a lot easier. My reamer has the standard pilot and this did keep old Bill Crosby up past his bed time. He is a very good gunsmith and did an exellent job. If you go ahead and need headspace guages let me know. Also on the rebore and rechamber your gunsmith will have to get it just right so the quarter rib lines up true. It would be nice to see someone like youself with a 470 Mbogo to put it through it's paces. I would really be interested in what you think. Is your 470 Capstick being built on an action that would handle the Mbogo? 470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
R.A.Berry,
A couple of other things that I remembered. I don't know if your Ruger 77 Mk11 is the same as mine but I had a little stock problems. On the underside of the barrel there is a little tit that the magazine box bumps up against. With the recoil of the 470 and a magazine box full of shells this little tit would bend in the front of the magazine box shortening it and then would not let the cartridges feed up properly. Solution is to remove this tit and glass bed in front of the magazine box so it can't move forward. This would be magnified with a 585 Nyati. I also put in two hidden cross bolts by removing material and glass bedding in 10/32 screws with the nuts on them. My stock was cracking inside and this fixed the problem. When I was at Cliff Labounty's he was reboring a Ruger 77 Mk11 from 416 Rigby to 585 Nyati. The barrel was starting to look a little thin to me. He had it rebored but not rifled at the time. 470 Mbogo

470Mbogo,
I just made it over to your website on Friday and it offers a great mount of information for the big bores...great stuff! I was quite interested in the stock design of your rifle as it appears quite well handling/behaved in your video! I will get back shortly and look over the website again.

Curious why you went with this design over something like the easy(?) .475 Rigby conversion? Certainly this .475 Rigby conversion isn't well known - we all found that out from this post...Don't get me wrong, I think that .470 Mbogo is a really nice cartridge especially after seeing your website, but is the conversion a bit more difficult than the .475 Rigby? Are there more magazine box mods than with the .475 Rigby?

I wonder how the case volumes compare... .475 Mbogo to .475 Rigby? Your .470 Mbogo is nice in that it offers a greater pressure margin. It appears that the CZ-550 is sure a nice way to go with either .475!

Holler back at us when you get a moment! ...And everyone enjoy your Father's Day (if it applies)!

Regards,
Jeff Pfeifer

470 Mbogo,
Thanks for the details. You have decided me on the CZ 550 action. Old Eleanor Rigby will have to stay a fat barreled 416. I have a CZ 550 action that I was "fiddling" with. It is destined to become a 470 Mbogo.
I am up to my arse in alligators right now, with my Botswana trip coming up, but when things die down to a dull roar I will get on the stick. I would like to get the reamer and dies ordered and see about the headspace guages too. JGS ought to be able to make a set of those for me too, right?

My 470 Capstick is on a Winchester Model 70, too tiny for the Mbogo.

A sporty 10 pound 470 Mbogo would be the cat's meow. I like those cartridges that run off a full tank of Reloder 15.

The BBK-02 I have in 460 Weatherby might be turned into a 585 Nyati someday, if I live that long.

I just got through pronouncing someone deceased here. It was not a tough decision, and really a hopeless case from the start, two weeks ago. Hospital work tonight. I break the monotony by posting here. I would rather be pronouncing cape buffalo, but that is left to the PH.

BTW, what twist rate did you use for your barrel on the 470 Mbogo?

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R. A. Berry:
R.A.Berry,
The reamers and headspace gauges are available from JGS but I'm more than willing to lend you mine if you want to chamber a barrel. The twist rate on my barrel is one in fourteen and seems to work really well. Remember that a .475-500grain bullet is a lot shorter than a .458-500 grain bullet. Good luck and good hunting on your trip to Botswana.R.A.Berry and Pfeifer send me an e-mail with your mailing address and I'll forward you a dummy 470 Mbogo round. 470 Mbogo

[This message has been edited by 470 Mbogo (edited 06-20-2001).]