I have a theory about why the newer CZ DG rifles are having bedding problems and often don't feed without some tuning.

Until a few years ago, the guns were made and assembled (and I assume tested) in the Czech Republic. The old "hog backs" seldom had any problems and all I did with mine was glass bed them just to not have to worry about cracking a stock and to lessen any warping from changes in moisture content.

If I understand correctly, the actions are still made in Europe but "mated" with the stocks (American style) in the U.S. (albeit, without the zillion years of experience formerly used to good effect by the Czech craftsmen.) Even if the guys in Europe work the actions some with ammo, it just isn't the same as trying everything out with the same stock that's going home with the buyer???? That and the fact that CZ is selling three to five times the guns they used to make has to result in QC problems.

Any comments?

BTW, the last CZ I bought was a .458 Lott with the American stock. It would only feed correctly if you loaded the magazine full-up... until Roger Ferrell fixed it, that is.

I've owned two 602s. Both needed the extractor opened up and some sharp edges removed off of the feed ramps, bedding, and that was it.

Yes, it seems that there are quite a few problems (at least complaints) with the new guns. I don't know that I agree that the stock is the problem - although in some cases it certainly could be.

I noted in an earlier thread that a freind just received one with 12-thousandths too much headspace and a barrel that was 2-degrees off center.

Sounds like some significant quality control issues to me... All new factory rifles have to be "dehorned" a bit for smoother feeding with a little fine sandpaper work, but it's generally always been minor with the Ruger M77's that I've always used.

As far as the European Lux models go, I've seen quite a few well made ones out of the box. Though they may have a few burrs to polish, not really bad at all. The checkering and wood might not be the best but the European models almost always have the better wood, checkering and inletting. I have a 375 Safari Mag/European Lux that has wood as nice as my Ruger RSM (which looks as good as any I've seen), and is inletted almost perfect. It also printed cloverleaf groups out of the box, w/ the sights almost dead on.

Flip side of the coin, I've never seen an American version that looked good to me (though I'm sure they exist). I've handled approx. 10 or 15 American stocked Safari models and all had blocky unrefined stocks made of lower grade wood w/ poor checkering and sloppy inletting. I don't know why this is, unless they are stocked in Kansas while the Lux models are stocked at CZ.

If you get the kinks out, the CZ is as solid, reliable and accurate as any.

Gary

Gary,

Very interesting observations between the two models. It's disappointing that there's such a wildly erratic difference between the two...

This dip in QC usually results from the importer or manufacturer cutting corners while rushing to fill orders.

Buyers of balky rifles should contact the importer and get them fixed right away.

George

I sometimes wonder if this is not a problem brought on by Americans themselves?

No offence intended by that statement, its just many Americans seem to have a different attitude to factory guns than say Europeans.

For example, how many times to we here that it is only normal that factory guns require a certain amount of tuning to get them reliable ect? I say thats BS! If you buy a new car, do you expect the local mechanic to have to work the fuel system over or sort out the breaks before its reliable?

In Europe and the UK, if a new rifle isn't right, the usual procedure is to return it and hold the company responsible..If that happens a lot it digs into a company's profits and makes them think about their QC. On the other hand the more folks accept shoddy workmanship and sort problems themselves, the more QC is going to slip..

A good case in point are rifles in say .416 Rigby and above...Why do we still hear of factory stocks splitting after only a few rounds? Why do we accept rifles that are not bedded or cross bolted properly? Its not rocket science and if incorperated in the design stage, additional costs would be minimal.

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

That is a really good point. Stop buying them and they will go away.

I too purchased a CZ 550 American in .458 Lott (about a year ago). Stock looked like vintage 2x4, checkering was playskool quality, and the rifle wouldn’t feed. I don’t know if it is where it’s made or some other reason, but I sure hate getting factory rifles that don’t work.

Oh, and that sight is both too small and too far out front for any serious dangerous game work. I think Ganyama wrote that they were shortening the barrels and re-installing the sights, in addition to working them over so that they’ll actually feed. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a rifle like the CZ that actually came from the factory ready to go?

Lets stick with the car analogy...would you drive a factory car in the Indy 500? No. In like manner, we are not talking about guns used for deer hunting, we are talking about DG rifles (I think). I dont care what brand of rifle I am going to use (custom, winny, dakota, cz, does not matter, I am going to take it to my "mechanic" and make sure it is "running" perfectly. I have a BRNO 375 H&H which I absolutely love and have had no problems with. I also have a CZ 550 416 Rigby that I have had all kinds of difficulty with. I bought the gun with the intention and understanding that I would need to do some work with it. I have had the barrel shortened to 22", new front sight, installed a barrel band swivel, and installed a Brockmans stock. Once I get this feeding problem solved I am confident that I will have built a very reliable DG rifle with less investment if I would have bought a Dakota or some other high -end custom gun. JMHO.

No offense, but Dakotas are not very high end.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
I say thats BS! If you buy a new car, do you expect the local mechanic to have to work the fuel system over or sort out the breaks before its reliable?

Regards,

Pete

Does the name "Lucas" ring a bell?

Lucas…………….didn’t they invent blinking lights and intermittent windshield wipers

Q: "Why do Brits drink warm beer?"

A: "They all have Lucas refrigerators."

Gentlemen,

Below is cut&paste from a different post reference me inspecting a new box stock CZ "American":

Gentlemen,

Update, I inspected two factory new boxed rifles, an M70 Safari Express and a CZ "American" Safari.

M70 - The overal fit and finish was excellent. All visible machine work appeared well done and the barrel had one of the better crowns I've seen on a production rifle. The rear sights were the same as those imported by NECG. The front sights appeared to be either NECG or Williams. The action fed smoothly. The only issue I had w/ this rifle was the height of the comb. I cannot comfortably get down to the iron sights. The rifle naturally shoulders for scope use but is no good for iron sights.

Does anyone see a problem w/ removing some wood lowering the comb on this stock?

CZ "American" - This is very sad. I've posted before that I've noticed that the "American" models appeared to be of poorer quality than the "European Lux" models. Well this particular "American" Safari that I inspected was the absolute worst I've ever seen. It is not in the same league as the two CZ "Lux" Safari rifles that I own. The stock wood quality is bottom of the barrel. I hate to call it checkering, but whatever you call it is unbelievably bad. The stock looks as if inletted by a jigsaw. The inletting of the barrel channel does not even match the barrel contour/profile. The barrel does not have a crown. The barrel is cut at 90 degrees and it appears that the outer edge was rounded by a bench grinder then polished. It is so out of round that it gives the appearance that the bore is off center. The action binded badly and would not feed. The test targets were missing so I have no idea how well it shoots. I cannot for the life of me see how CZ could have done such an outstanding job on my two European models yet allow such rubbish to get out of the factory.

I wish I could have located a new European model to compare but none were found.

I think at this point I'm leaning towards the Winchester, provided I am certain I could reshape the stock for iron sight use.

Gary

A new rifle that doen't feed is like a new car that will not start! Ok, you can feed it one at a time and they used to make those cars with a cranking lever up front!
I had two ZKK 602 rifles and they had some rough edges, but both were 100% reliable.
Some of these new CZ550s Magnums sound dreadful indeed.

JudgeG,

I came to the same conclusion when the "American" series was introduced. It was not listed on the Czech website, so I assumed they were being assembled in the US. I avoided them like the plague.

When they started rechambering stateside guns to .458 Lott, I just figured it was a good idea being handled poorly.

These two events are causing me to approach their new Classic Safari line with extreme caution. I have found the original 550 series to be of respectable quality. I do not trust American gunsmiths trying to remanufacture European rifles in mass quantities. If I had some assurance that all CZ rifles were being completely assembled in the Ceska Zbrojovka facility, I would have the utmost confidence in their products.

I have noticed that the American series is now listed on the Czech website, leading me to believe that at least some of them are being made there.

This is one of the reasons I don't care for the current line of Sig pistols. The frames are being made in Germany, but the slides are being made in the US. I would prefer that firearms be designed, built and tested by one group, who will assume total responsibility for the product.

500 Grains,

Excuse me but I can no longer resist. You bash any rifle made that is less than about $6,000.

Apparently the only gun that is worthy of being packed for Africa is a Prechtel, Ritterbusch, Johansson, Searcy or the all-mighty Darcy Echols Custom. YAWN!

Please tell us how you came by your apparently unlimited wealth (or gun snobbery).

I loved the old hogback stocks. They fit me and the rifles were accurate out of the box. I've owned one American. I gave it to a kid I knew wouldn't use it.
I have 8 CZ's and BRNO's in Big game calibers of one vintage or another(7 rimfires). All reliable and acceptable except the American. I wouldn't buy a new one unless it was the European model.

Hugh, what are you saying? Purdey, Boss, Holland, Hofer, Hartmann & Weiss, Lebeau- Courally,...that's snobbery!

Gentlemen,

Would it be safe to expect that the European Safari Magnum "Lux" model is made w/ the same higher quality as in the past? Is the poor Quality Control exclusive to the "American" version?

I've been unable to locate a current "European Lux" Safari model to inspect, but it would be reassuring to know that I could order such model w/ the confidence that it will not have the same issues as the "American".

Gary

KurtC:

Too bad the "Americans" aren't made with the skill of the Ernst Kerner FS 9.3x62 that you sold me years ago. That rifle is the slickest feeding and accurate rifle that I own.

I've got a sister who has lived in the Czech Republic and I go visit her often. I'm going there Christmas and I think I'll go ask "the horses mouth" to mix a metaphor and see what's going on with CZ.

Not that you can't get a CZ American to look and function well, though:::

JudgeG,

Make sure you stop by the Brno factory as well. See if they can they can scrounge up a full stock 98 in 9.3x62 for you, engraved of course. (one for me, too)

Brno Arms

I'll take a BRNO M98 too, please, to compare to my 9.3x62 CZ 550 Medium FS Lux that has gorgeous wood and shoots sub 1/2 MOA right out of the box, fairly slick and well fitted all around for about $500 new, once upon a time.

The CZ 550 Magnums are getting more and more to be "kit" guns that are a starting point for do-it-yourselfers and gunsmiths. The quality of the "Hogback" Lux rifles used to be somewhat better, but not much.

Hey, they have self-locking extractors and spring steel in those extractors, and that is the heart of a good Mauserly starting point. Jewels in the rough.

And so are most Winchester M70's.

I've been saving my milk money to buy my first 375 H&H and had intended to get a CZ 550 American Safari. However, considering the many comments here on CZ's degraded quality, I may just wait a little longer and get a Ruger instead.

Or, I might just say to hell with it and get me another 1911 pistol instead.

quote:

Originally posted by Hugh W:
500 Grains,

Excuse me but I can no longer resist. You bash any rifle made that is less than about $6,000.

Apparently the only gun that is worthy of being packed for Africa is a Prechtel, Ritterbusch, Johansson, Searcy or the all-mighty Darcy Echols Custom. YAWN!

Please tell us how you came by your apparently unlimited wealth (or gun snobbery).

I tend to give 500 grains right, half the way! Compared to a Brno (CZ) a Dakota Rifle is much more expensive, but in a world of custom rifles in general, a Dakotarifle is not a "highend" rifle. Here in Europe we tend to own less rifles per hunter than in america, but the ones we buy are generally much more expensive than the average american hunter/shooter would be willing to spend!. When a hunter overhere buys a rifle, it is usually a lifetime investment and often spend 5-7000$ for a complete rifle like a nice Sauer 90 or steyer with walnutstock,clawmounts or EAW mounts plus a nice zeiss/S&B scope and that`s it!. I guess it`s a matter of culture. In america the gunindustry tend to play a part of the political agenda, where it is important that all americans can get a rifle/handgun for a lowcost!. The gunindustry is not a political factor overhere, infact I`ve never heard them!.

The few ZB VZ-24 Mannlicher rifles I have seen were a good step above CZ in quality.

I happened across this thread this morning before I left for the range to due some final tuning in with my CZ 416 Rigby with laminate stock prior to heading off to AK next month in search of the big brownies.

After the third shot this morning I noticed the stock had formed a wedge like crack at the back lug. It appears the recoil has caused the laminate stock to start splintering.

All I can due now is take it to my gunsmith and let him do what he can with it. It may be repairable. Worse case is put the biggest band aid on it possible until I get back.

Other than McMillan who makes replacement stocks for the CZ's?????

As much as I like my CZ, it probably will be the last one I buy. QC does appear to be a problem with those American made rifles.

Guess I'll just go back to buying Rugers

quote:

Originally posted by BHW:
I happened across this thread this morning before I left for the range to due some final tuning in with my CZ 416 Rigby with laminate stock prior to heading off to AK next month in search of the big brownies.

After the third shot this morning I noticed the stock had formed a wedge like crack at the back lug. It appears the recoil has caused the laminate stock to start splintering.

All I can due now is take it to my gunsmith and let him do what he can with it. It may be repairable. Worse case is put the biggest band aid on it possible until I get back.

Other than McMillan who makes replacement stocks for the CZ's?????

As much as I like my CZ, it probably will be the last one I buy. QC does appear to be a problem with those American made rifles.

Guess I'll just go back to buying Rugers

Did you have the stock bedded prior to the crack?

No, I did not.

My understanding was that with the laminate stock bedding it was not necessary, but you can be sure I am going to ask my gunsmith about that.

If CZ felt the barrel needed to be bedded in order to prevent what happened from happening they should have bedded the barrel themselves and added a few bucks to the reasonable cost of the rifle or provided instructions with the rifle that clearly indicate that bedding the barrel is necessary.

It's like buying a new car and the manufacturer not putting fluid in the engine, transmission, differentail, tranfer case, etc.

FWIW it ain''t much of a laminate stock if it is splitting at all much less after just a few rounds. I think I'd be pissed and on the phone to CZ-USA. The quality should be a lot better than that.
If you have to spend $300-$400 for a new stock and then pay somebody to put it on and bed it you should have bought a higher end gun in the first place. (Not a personal "you"). The more I think about it the madder I believe I'd be.
As I said, I have a bunch of CZ's and love them but mine are all older than 2000-some a lot older. I never had any stock problems even with the 375(but it's a ZKK). The 458 Lott was already in a synthetic stock by Nickudu. I have a 416 but I've only put 60 or so rounds through it. No sign of problem.

I'm out of town for several weeks, but why doesn't someone send this thread to CZ-USA and the Czech address and see what they say. Maybe they'll take a hint.

Great idea.

Just did it.

Will see what if any repsonse from CZ is received.

I took my CZ to my gunsmith today. He pulled the barrel and we both closely examined what looked like superfical damage to the laminate stock. I wasn't convinced and asked if he had a magnifying glass to look at this. There appears to be a hariline fracture running from the outside (on top) at one of the starting points of cracking all the way down to the rear bedding ledge.

We called CZ and told them of my desparate situation with me leaving for AK in August for brownies. They agreed to ship a new laminate stock to my gunsmith. I assume it will be a warranty item.

Upon closer examination I discovered the front pillar block hole to be oval, not round and had the metal sleeve fall completely out. It appears to me that this QC problem with the hole was allowing an additional transfer of energy to the back that it was not intended to take.

CZ told my gunsmith not to bed anything, that we should just drop it in and tighten it up as much as possible.

More after I get my gun back.