Your thought on the tougher bullet, and what most guns like better?

T-man In my opinion the Swift A-frame is much tougher and will penetrate much deeper than the Partion. The construction of these bullets are similar in some ways and much different in others. Both have an H shaped jacket. The partion has approx 2/3 of the lead core in the front section of its jacket and 1/3 in the rear section. The jacket of the front section is made quite fragile so the bullet will mushroom even at low velocities. The front core of the partition often separates and creates a large wound channel. The rear 1/3 core will stay intact and continue to penetrat and will often exit. The Swift A-frame bullets have approx 1/3 of their lead core in the front section and this core is soldered to the copper jacket. The rear section has the remaining 2/3 of the lead core. When shot into an animal the front section mushrooms to approx 2x its diameter but it does not lose the lead core because it is soldered to the jacket.A-frame normally retain approx 95% of their original weight. So for large dangerous game the A-frames will penetrate very deep. You will seldom recover them. Both can be very accurate. Hope that helps

Swift A Frame is harder and more suitable for Buffalo and Magnums. IMHO of course.

Well I must say that I like both equally well. Swifts will have more weight retention often around 95% whereas Partitions will be around 65%. I have found the Partitions to often penetrate deeper than Swifts if impact velocity is high because the frontal area is much smaller on a totally expanded Partition with lost front core compared to the bondend A frames.. The Swifts will often be a "big belly" bullet with a very large frontal area if impactvel is high. At sedate velocity on impact the Swift will often penetrate better..

Just my experiences...

There was testing I had done by Michael 458 in the terminal bullet performance thread with 416 slugs. Tested TSX's (400gr), A frames (400 gr), Nosler partitions (400 gr) and North Forks (370 gr) at 2400FPS. All penetrated in his medium about the same. The Nosler partitions penetrated the deepest of the group by about a inch.
BTW; Nosler partitions 375 and above carry +82% of their weight after impact. Their partition has been moved forward. I would pick which ever of these shoot best in your gun. They are all good!

EZ

You cannot go wrong with either bullet, IMO the two of the three best bullets on the market for big game, the other one being the northfork bullet. The Swifts as a whole over the 20+ years that I have used them seem to be a little more accurate in the rifles I've had over the years over the Nosler partitions. Either bullet will not let you down, the Swifts will retain 90+% bullet weight while the partition will be 72-85% but will open up more than the Swift.

This question can't be answered in a vacuum. Depends on the game and the velocity of your cartridge. For soft skinned animals at modest velocity, I would say the Partition is the better choice. That probably would be true on heavier game at modest velocity as well. For heavier game, at higher velocity, the Swift would probably be the better choice.

The Swift does it the same every time. I have never seen one fail and they aways seem to be in the hide on the opposite side. Always musrooms perfectly.

Of the two mentioned, I lean heavy to the Swift Side of things for Conventional Premiums. I have used a lot of them in the field over the years, and I have never had an issue of any sort from day one. I don't have as much field work with the Noslers, but in the old days I had some issues with getting enough penetration from some of the smaller calibers, such as 338. I had much better results with the Swifts. So I think some of that hangs around for years in ones mind and might cause one to be a little prejudiced!

I think today choosing a premium conventional I would look hard at the North Forks. Why? I have little to no experience with the North Forks in the field. One thing I have noticed doing the test work is that the more velocity, the deeper the penetration. This is opposite of normal with Conventional premiums, which all give less penetration with more velocity. Now, this needs to be looked at much more in depth, pun intended. HEH.....I have a bunch of North Forks coming in this week, we might put a study on this and see what we can come up with.

M

T man,

Depending on what caliber you are talking about should should look at the CEB non con if you are using 9.3 up.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
T man,

Depending on what caliber you are talking about should should look at the CEB non con if you are using 9.3 up.

Sam

Well I did not want to be looked upon as "Hocking" bullets--But for sure, I won't be needing anymore Swifts or Noslers for my work in the field. #13 NonCons for this sort of thing for me!
M

I think I have to disagree with Sam and Michael here.

Of the two, I think that the Swift is indeed the "tougher" bullet but that doesn't make it the most appropriate choice is all situations. If you are shooting a kudu with your 9.3X74 with a muzzle velocity of 2240 fps, then I think you are better of with the Nosler, especially is the kudu is 100 yds. or more away. If it's a buffalo at 50 meters with the same gun, then the Swift might be the better choice but even here, at such modest velocity, I think the Nosler or perhaps a Woodleigh would work also. In a .416 Rigby pushing your 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps, the Swift seems more appropriate. You have to put your choice into some kind of context considering caliber, game, etc., before you make your choice don't you?

As this question has been posed in the big bore column I will say that all my testing and expereince has convinced me that, everything else being equal, the Nosler partitions of today will penetrate quite a bit deeper than the Swifts.
If you want the deepest penetration get the Noslers and if you want the widest mushroom get the Swift.
Both bullets are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I think I have to disagree with Sam and Michael here.

WHAT? DISAGREE WITH ME??????? SAM TOO??????

HEH HEH---

Say it ain't so!

Here is the kicker and you said it perfectly well

quote:

You have to put your choice into some kind of context considering caliber, game, etc., before you make your choice don't you?

A huge yes--But I always think in terms of Buffalo! So...........


Again, NonCons solve all problems with bullet choice! HEH.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
As this question has been posed in the big bore column I will say that all my testing and expereince has convinced me that, everything else being equal, the Nosler partitions of today will penetrate quite a bit deeper than the Swifts.
If you want the deepest penetration get the Noslers and if you want the widest mushroom get the Swift.
Both bullets are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either.

Just what I wrote , or at least what I wanted to.., could not formulate it as precise as you Phil.. I have the same experience with NP and Swifts..

quote:

WHAT? DISAGREE WITH ME??????? SAM TOO??????

Disagreeing with the bullet czars? Blasphemy!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

WHAT? DISAGREE WITH ME??????? SAM TOO??????

Disagreeing with the bullet czars? Blasphemy!!!!

Biebs

HEH HEH--Just what I thought myself!

You mean I'm a Czar too! Thanks!

I know. I know. I was really, really scared when I said I disagree with the MIB

How about Barnes TSX FB's? No honerable mentions?

The CEB noncom does look like it could have a lot going for it. But and this is a big but we need to see more field reports on its effectiveness on buffalo before we get to carried away.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Rob H:
How about Barnes TSX FB's? No honerable mentions?

No honerable mention, I put them on top when considering high velocity, the need for a strongly built expanding bullet, and they have proved to be an accurate hunting bullet.

I've been using the TSXs since 2004, in many calibers, on game up to Cape Buffalo. They penetrate flesh and bone exceptionally well.

The only problem I have with TSXs, is their length...with limited case capacity (ie 458 win. mag.) the larger TSXs take up too much capacity.

I started using North Fork Softs this year with very good results in my 404 Jeffery. The North Forks have proven accurate and penetrate cape buffalo very well only recovered one bullet that retained 94 % of weight its weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I know. I know. I was really, really scared when I said I disagree with the MIB

Well all I can say about that is you must know someone very high up in MIB, and have a good inside track to get away with such behavior! But I would not push my luck on it!!!!

HEH.........

quote:

The CEB noncom does look like it could have a lot going for it. But and this is a big but we need to see more field reports on its effectiveness on buffalo before we get to carried away.

465H&H

465HH

Well, it's too late, I am already "carried away" with the NonCons for my personal use. But, I concede that you are 110% correct, we need more field data. I am hoping that many of you guys take them this year so we can confirm what I happen to believe. So far my NonCon use has been with the 500 MDM. Running a 470 Copper at 2425 fps, and it was a hammer on Australian buffalo. But I have yet to take the brass ones in the field myself. I will do my part, but I want a lot more data than just mine, as there are things we need to learn about them.

Like I said a few days, or week or some time ago, the NonCons CANNOT FAIL! What? Well this is why, PENETRATION. There is no doubt about the penetration, if you hit them right, penetration will take care of itself! It's there with the NonCons! I also have a darn good idea about actual wound channels as well. But my questions come down to 3 things. #1 is velocity, will the NonCons inflict trauma to target at lower velocities, say 2150 fps at the muzzle. Will they have the knock out ability at this velocity? Personally, I think they will, but these NonCons like velocity, the more velocity the better! But even at low velocity of 2100 fps they test extremely well, and come out ahead of all the premiums in the penetration department. #2 How far will these blades go in a buffalo? We know they exit broadside deer--the blades are not going to exit a buffalo. Will they rip and tear at vital tissue, causing secondary wound channels and trauma? #3 is just plain old observation of the animal when it takes a NonCon. How does that animal react, and how so in comparison to others that you have taken with different bullets? Is more trauma inflicted as the animal takes that bullet, and how does it react? These are the 3 most important things I am going to be looking at with the NonCons this year.

I think there are quite a few going to the field this year, besides me. We must all combine our thoughts on these and what we observe!

465HH, you may not be real happy with them, and I do caution you on this, they are going to exit broadside buffalo, just about count on that! Maybe not at angles, but dead broadside, they are going to leave an exit hole. So just pay attention to that. Or if I were you, I would get two of the buggers lined up just right and bust both of them! Wait a minute, I think you may be the only man I know that has done that with elephant! 465HH, My Hero! 2 elephant-1 Bullet! Da Man!

HEH HEH.........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by T man:
Your thought on the tougher bullet, and what most guns like better?

The toughest bullet is a solid. The question you have to ask is how will the expanding bullet perform at the closest range (highest impact velocity) you will shoot at, and how will it perform at the longest range (lowest impact velocity) you will shoot at.

I've never hunted plains game, but for deer, elk, and black bears, I prefer the Noslers, because I know they expand at lower velocitys and will cause massive tissue damage but still penetrate at close range. If I was after grizzly, cape buffalo or lion I would choose the A-Frame since in no case would I be shooting them at any range where velocity fall off would be a concern.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
As this question has been posed in the big bore column I will say that all my testing and expereince has convinced me that, everything else being equal, the Nosler partitions of today will penetrate quite a bit deeper than the Swifts.
If you want the deepest penetration get the Noslers and if you want the widest mushroom get the Swift.
Both bullets are fantastic and you can't go wrong with either.

I agree with 458 Win. Both are great bullets.

I would vote for neither.

Try the North Fork bonded Soft Points.

Then heavier Swifts and Noslers in that order.

Andy

Andy;

Would you clarify: "A premium should handle low SD at high velocity". Then you mention those that don't, Swifts, Noslers, Barnes, etc.?

Thanks,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

Thanks for asking.

A premium bullet should be able to handle a wide velocity envelope. And not require use of a high SD bullet at relatively low velocity to perform well.

Thats why they call them premium bullets.

The nosler partition was certainly the first of these and made magnum ctg effective.

A 400 grain Swift 416 is only going 2400 fps or a bit less and it has a huge SD. Its does a great job but is it really a premium bullet?

The lighter for caliber Swifts have some problems. 250 grain 375, 400 and 450 grain 458 dont handle alot of extra velocity.

Same for the others I mentioned.

North Fork is a premium. Bitterroot, the original bonded bullet is a premium. Original TBBC. Nothing else quite in their category.

The newer noslers you have to take on a case by case basis. The medium bores have quite a thick meplat that does not blow off front end like the Barnes. But their smaller bores have been tuned for accuracy rather than frontal area and the 30 calibers at least blow off front end down to a wadcutter. I prefered their older impact extrusion bullets and their original lathe turned. I have disintigrated their 180 grain 30 caliber on head shot on american bison. killed the bison but just shrapenel left of the bullet. Is this a premium bullet? Probably not anymore.

Swifts as you know can do funny things like expand from the base and beer barrel the base which actually helps support the frontal area of bonded core.

I recommend bonded NF softs to all my freinds.

Andy

Both good bullets. In my experince in the big calibers noslers out penatrate the swifts and often exit. The swifts always have a bigger frontal area. They both kill buffalo just fine, along with the TBBC I am OK with any of them for buffalo.

I'd use the Nosler in thin skinned game, but have used the A Frame in 7mm Rem and .375 H&H on everything from whitetail to buff and they kill everything stone dead. Hair splitting aside, I'll stick with what has worked for me. Each to his own.

What he said. ^