Wondering what the comparison in recoil between a 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge waterfowl load in a pump gun and a 416 Rigby 400 gr. at 2300fps. The waterfowl load is 1 3/8 oz @ 1350fps. After a day of pass shooting, I can feel the pain...... I will be buying a cz 550, 416 Rigby when they are available in the American stock. As my age advances, I have to be concerned with potential injuries. Don't heal as fast as in years past.... Haven't met anyone at the gun club that has a 416 or similar to be one with the gun.

I don't know what the math works out to, and all the other variables like weight, stock design, etc. but I imagine felt recoil should be pretty close. The other day, I was bench shooting my 375 Whitworth (fairly lightweight, small poorly designed butt) and my Remington 870 with 2 3/4", 1 OZ slugs. The shotgun was more painful.

That gives me hope. I've shot slugs in a light single shot and could tell the difference between that and my heavier pump.

not even close, fellas

an oz is 437 grains (right?)
at 1400 fps...

the FASTEST 12 ga SLUGS are 385gr at 1950... about 450 marlin recoil....

that's about blackpowder 45/70 loads

we'll assume, for the sake of numbers that we'll have

1 oz at 1550 (the same as the hivel steel shot loads) (we'll use 450 grains as that's easier for QL... in a 7.25# shotgun...

that's 34# and 17ft/s about 338 winmag...

or, to more closely match a 12 ga
400 grains at 1250 fps...
16# and 12fps

in a cz 416 rigby...
400 at 2400
61# and 20fps...

that will FEEL like at least 1/2 again as much, for the first 100 rounds... and those should be taken from STANDING... and it will feel more like 3x a 12 ga.

jeffe

[ 11-10-2003, 14:30: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Here I go with another subjective recoil question. I would say this: the shove from the Ruger No. 1 in .416 Rigby felt very authoritative to me. It was not pleasant after the first half-dozen rounds from the bench.
But when I think back on patterning 12-gauge, 2-ounce 3-inch Magnum turkey loads from a Browning BPS from sitting position, my blood runs cold. Maybe it is the fact that a shotgun barrel is so thin and light out front. Whatever it is, if I had to shoot 20 rounds of either one, I would pick the Rigby in a heartbeat. I have never been kicked by a big-bore rifle with decently heavy barrel the way I have been kicked by shotguns.

I reckon the Rigby kicks more hands down.

Jeffe, Is the 300 gr @ 2800 in the same level? Other than the shotguns, 30-06's, and lesser rounds,the only other comparison I could ask about is with an 8mm Rem Mag that I shot more than 20 years ago with a plastic butt plate. And also my muzzleloader with 150grains of pyrodex and 350gr bullet and no recoil pad. Unfortunately I haven't come across anyone at the range that had a Big Bore to try other than a Shiloh Sharps in a 45-70. It didn't kick as much as I thought but I attribute that to the weight of the rifle. I'm ignorant and about to enter the world of Big Bores and would like to do it with eyes slightly open.

Jeffe, I don't know how each of the variables factor in your formula but how would 1 3/8 oz (600gr) @ 1400 fps calculate?

I'll say it again: My Remington 870 with 2 3/4" magnum loads seems to hit me harder than my 375 despite the fact that the 375 develops more energy. My 416 definitely kicks harder than my 375 (and my shotgun) but I don't have a 3.5" 12 gauge so I can't compare the two. This is subjective, not based on math, others may feel differently.

I agree that the 300 gr 375 does not have the felt recoil of the 3 1/2 SG load.

But, even though the characteristics of the recoil are different the Rigby kicks harder than the SG ... and I have a VERY good pad on my Rigby. The Rigby recoil is more jarring with the Rigby.

That being said, it is not so objectionable. One learns that shooting from the bench isn't fun and cannot be safely done with the typical raise the butt with the off hand and let the gun roll as it will. Standing is better, so you arrange some sort of standing rest. That makes a huge difference in comfort.

In my uneducated opinion, these are hunting rifles and one shoots groups to vette ammo rather than as a routine thing. So you don't shoot them in painful positions all that much.

It has been a long while since I fired a 416, but. As I recall my 870 with turkey loads beat me up worse than my M700 Safari in 416 Remington mag. Neither was 'over the top' for me recoil wise, but both were far heavier kickers than my M700 300 Win mag!

I think if you 'can' shoot the 12 gauge max turkey loads well, you will not have any problems getting used to shooting a 416 Rigby.

By the way, I turned by M700, 416 Rem into a 500 Jeffery and that was a whole new world of recoil! Even with a muzzle brake it kicked like hell! After getting used to that cannon, shooting my M870 with turkey loads was like a 22, nice and pleasant.

Kent

Comparison:

Offhand shot with 3.5 oz 12 gauge load in mossberg pump

versus

Offhand shot with 416 rigby cz550 pushing 400 grains at 2400 fps.

The 416 had about 1/3 less felt recoil. That is probably due to greater gun weight and better recoil pad.

I fire 1 7/8 oz BB loads out of a light south american SXS 12ga and to me that kicks less than a 375.

My brother is the opposite way. he says the shotgun loads kick more.And says Brenneke 600gn slug loads kick about the same or less than factory 375 H&H.

I'm wondering if the novelty of firing your elephant gun puts you in a different state of mind.
Whereas the 12ga is just boring old business so you feel every single ftlb of recoil.

Karl.

I've found that (to Me anyway) a shotgun throwing about the same slug at a somewhat lesser velocity seems to kick more.

I'm guessing that's because shotshells use a much faster (pistol speed) powders so that the recoil is a lot "sharper". Like a jab instead of a push to the shoulder. It's much more pleasent for me to fire a 375 H&H than a 7mm mag. or 300 Win. mag.

A lightweight 12 gague shooting 3.5 inch max loads is no fun. The stocks aren't designed for recoil, etc..

Ok, here it is...

Remington 870 SuperMag, 7.5 lbs
3.5" Hevi-Shot Waterfowl Load
730 grain (including wad) "bullet" @ 1350 fps
~38 grains of powder
Recoil Velocity = 19.75 fps
Recoil Energy = 45.5 ft-lbs
Recoil Factor = 897

CZ 550 416 Rigby, 9.3 lbs
400 gr bullet @ 2300 fps
~94 grains of H4350 powder
Recoil Velocity = 17.45 fps
Recoil Energy = 44.0 ft-lbs
Recoil Factor = 768

The 416 Rigby @ 2300fps will have less felt recoil than the 3.5" 12 ga load. Look at the recoil observations on the FAQ page for the details of Recoil Factor. You can bump up the velocity to 2400 with the Rigby, and you'll be equal to the 12 ga load. Enjoy

Original quotes:
"I don't know what the math works out to, and all the other variables like weight, stock design, etc. but I imagine felt recoil should be pretty close."
"The shotgun was more painful."

Scientificly confirmed. Welcome to the boards!

[ 11-13-2003, 18:15: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

seems like a couple of pretty obvious (to me anyway) factors are being overlooked:

weight of the firearm

stock design

BOTH have a strong affect on felt recoil.

A lightweight shotgun (say 6 lbs, and less for some!) shooting magnum load slugs will kick the hell out virtually anybody. And plastic stocks (like some feature) transmit even more unpleasant characteristics such as whisker grab and shockwave. Compared to a wood stocked, well designed, 9 pound rifle in .416 Rigy, I'll take my beating with the rifle, thanks.

actually, folks, i post 7.25 for the shotgun, and the listed weight of the cz. I don't miss things like that
jeffe

When I first took my Model 70 in 375 H&H out to shoot, I took along my 870 with some 3" 1 oz. slugs and some 3" turkey loads.

Filling the magazine of the shotgun with alternating slugs and turkey loads, I could hear some difference in the report, but I could not tell a difference in the felt recoil. Sitting down the shotgun and picking up the rifle, the recoil of the 375 didn't hurt nearly as much. It was the closest thing I can imagine to the top end of "fun" recoil at this point in my shooting career. The 375 did push me back a little farther than the 12 gauge. I noticed that I was putting my right foot back on the ground between shots (shooting left handed, offhand). This didn't happen with the more painful shotgun.

I shot a buddy's 470 NE double and tried the same experiment. This time, the shotgun with slugs was more comfortable by a good margin. This was a bad day to have a powerful migraine going, but I didn't want to pass up shooting his double because I felt a little headache coming on. My little headache that day, like the 470's recoil, became my new "personal best".

H. C.

That's what I was trying to avoid, too many "personal best" days. As it appears from the posts, the recoil will be fairly close with the Rigby in the lead. I have endured three days of pass shooting with the 3.5 totaling approximately 50 rounds. I'm thinking that a half dozen shots with the Rigby won't beat me up too much. That's why I have asked questions on the reloading and cast bullet boards. If any of you have experience in those areas, please advise. Thanks