I moved this from Wildcats because it got 80 reads but no replys....c'mon guys is this roound useful or BS?

Since the other post I have mocked one up with a 300 gr Hornady XTP seated to the rear cannelure for a COL 2.556 and it is one scary look'in little fireplug with plenty of shoulder for good headspacing.

I was toying with a wildcat based on the 300 WSM case necked up to .430 with the idea of duplicating the 416 Rem Mag in a short action while retaining the ability to use 44 Mag and 444 Marlin bullets in it at reduced loads. The problem was getting quality .430 jacketed bullets suitable for heavy game. I called hawk bullets to see if they could custom make some and discovered to my delight that they have a new .430 die for just that purpose. Talk about luck...

Anyway, I want to have them make the 430 bullets with cannelures in semi spitzer shape at 350 grs with .035 and .050 jackets. These would be at most 1.1 inches long and would leave 76 grs of water capacity in a round held to COL 2.8 inches, meeting the short action requirement. Sectional density would be .271, right there with the venerable 180 gr .308 bullets.

The round would be quite close to the 358 Win in expansion ratio and could therefore digest large qualtities of dense ball powders like AA2230 and 2460. Varget and Benchmark would also be good candidates as Extreme powders insensitive to heat and cold. On paper and in the computer the 350 grainer should top 2600 fps at safe pressures in a strong bolt action.

XMP 5744 would work well for the reduced loads duplicating the 444 marlin and 44 Mag in various bullet weights. In this application we are only talking about 38 grains of propellant to get 2100 fps from a 250 gr nosler partition, so recoil would only be 17.5 FP in an 8.5 lb rifle for the reduced loads.

On the top end, it will come within 70 fps of the 416 Rem and deliver over 5000 FPE with max loads using the 350 grainer. Recoil will be a bit lesss than the 416 due to the need for less propellant to make the velocity in a larger bore. With good construction and the availability of the .050 jacket, heavier bullets will not be necessary for penetration on even thick skinned game. Seems like a twist rate of 1 in 20 would work well with all bullets under consideration.

All of the above can be achieved in a 21 inch bbl...so what's not to like?

Sabot,

While I haven't analyzed the round you suggest, your analysis seems accurate.

Regarding your question, I say HELL NO it certainly isn't BS!

If you go ahead and develop this round keep us in the loop.

ASS_CLOWN

Sabot,
the round sound interesting, and I believe there are some heavy 444 bullets out there... I would only use the pistol bullets, and anything with an SD lower then close to .300, for think skinned game.

I believe there is a 425 express, which uses .423 bullets... a 458 win necked down.

Remember, XTP's are pistol bullets, designed to open rapidly. They, in 158gr .358, will more or less vaporize a jackrabbit, at 2850fps out of a 358 win.

Only difficulty i see is good bullets

jeffe

How about use a standard length action that will take rounds up to 3.3". Then use a full length RUM case and have your bullets made with a nose of .45"? Then you could get all the performance you would want out of a standard length action like a M-98.

Sounds like a fun little deer caliber, but a lousy dangerous game round. Forget about energy because it does not matter for massive animals. Just push a bullet that weighs at least 400 grains and has a sectional density of at least .300 to a velocity of at least 2150 fps and you havce a potent dangerous game round.

The reason I got excited is that hawk can now make .430 bullets in any weight I want, due to their acquisition of a long .430 die. Hence, the name 430 HAWK. My guess is that the 400 gr version in SPRN would go 1.2 inches in length with the .050 jacket. On paper this would cut case capacity from 76 to about 69 grs for an even 2400 fps compared to the 350 gr I mentioned. SD would run .309, not bad given the heavy construction.

Pistol bullets would of course be held to 1800 fps or so using low bulk, fast powders. The 444 Marlin duplication loads would use XMP5744 and possibly exceed the 444 by 100 to 200 fps.

The increase in bore size over the 416s really seems to pay off in this case capacity. You don't need 85 grs of powder to make 5000 FPE with a 430, while you do in a 416.

Building one on a low budget calls for using an oversized pilot on a 300 WSM cutter in a 416 bore savage bbl from Adams and Bennett. Thier 416 Taylor bbl probably won't work as the 430 Hawk is nearly 0.50 shorter and if the bbl is set back that much the lock ring probably won't have enough purchase. Other than that, its just a matter of cleaning up the throat and screwing the bbl onto a Savage 300 WSM, which I already have. The magazine is fine as is.

The idea is to plink and varmint hunt with the 44 mag pistol bullets, go into brush and woods with the 444 marlin duplication loads and still do the work of the 416 Rem/Rigby when DG is on the menu. One light and one heavy stock could be used to help tailor the rifle to the recoil likely to be encounterd on a given hunt. Lets say a 7.5 and a 9.5 pound semi-carbine about 40 inches long with the 21 inch bbl.

OOPS! Thanks for the sanity check...been working too much with 416s!

Unfortunately gettin a long .429 will be more expensive, but hopefully worth it.

There are a couple of problems with this proposed cartridge. THe first is case capacity is too small for good performance. So in order to get decent velocity you have to drop bullet weight (and sectional density), or load to high pressures, or both, which pretty much disqualifies it as a reliable dangerous game cartridge.

The other problem is that Hawk bullets cannot be considered suitable for thick skinned dangerous game because they break up too easily. I did a penetration test on a dead elephant and a Hawk .065 jacket penetrated 18" while a GS custom solid penetrated 6.5 feet.

500,
thanks for the on the hawk...
What i've seen, and some buddies have, is that the jacket seperates and the lead coins (expands back into itself flat) on hage as small as heavy texas hogs. this was with 400gr .458 in the 450 alaskan.

jeffe

I can't quite figure why pressure is still important in a DG rifle, since we have modern powders that are insensitive to temperature. As for penetration, it is no big task to fabricate 400 gr plated hard cast .430s. At 2400 fps and SD of .309 they should penetrate quite nicely...not much different from a 400 gr 416 solid at the same velocity.

Sabot.,

ALL powders are temp senstive..., as temp changes the starting energy of the reaction. They are just different degrees of results

pressure was an issue before modern metalurgy, but, hell, i'll rather shoot 55kpsi than 65

jeffe

A hard cast boolit is a good thing, but at 2400fps it probably won't hold up.
Has anybody tried a .410" 41 mag pistol bullet in a 416 of any kind? I don't know if it would be too undersized to grip the rifleings or seal the bore.
Maybe you could go with a 416 for the availible proven solid bullets, then have a custom boolit mold made for lighter bullets for plinking. check out www.mountainmolds.com He can make just about anything you would want. Or maybe swage 41mag jacketed pistol bullets up to 416 in a press. Or stay with the 430 and get custom turned solid bullets for it.

You could get a .429 barrel blank from Bauska barrels for $60 shipped. Then have a local smith contour it and cut threads for your Savage. I think the switch barrel thing is a cool idea, but I would rather just get another gun for a different caliber.

That's just a good reason to avoid factory ammo. Hodgdon's Extreme powders are not sensitive to even extreme changes in temperature. Its hard to believe that factories are dumb enough to use old technology powders, but that is the case.

Take the oft criticized 416 Rem...a lot of folks use R15 in it and although it is good at normal temps, it is typical of older tech powders when you heat it up. It WILL stick your case with a hot load. This round begs for slightly compressed charges of H4350 with 400 gr bullets for 2450 fps. You can't make this load stick a case with any amount of heat encountered by direct sunlight in the hottest part of Africa.

Why don't the factories load it? Your guess is as good as mine!

To bring things back to the original question, I think the 430 Hawk round is B.S. as far as a dangerous game round, but would be ok for pigs and deer.

Sounds like fun and games but from a practical viewpoint or mine personal veiwpoint which is what you asked for I think the 430 Hawk is an exercise in futility with little or no purpose what so ever...and Hawk bullets have not impressed me at all, they remind me of the 1940s and I don't want to go back there for my bullets..I like todays super bullets.

It seems to me you could just shoot cast bullet in a 416 Rem or if you just have to have a wildcat then use a 416 Chatfield/Taylor, and get the same effect and if you ever decided to sell the gun, then it would get you a lot more money......

Mauser in 444 Marlin, just rechamber.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=18865283

OK...I give on the Hawk bullets. Without them, there is no .429 or .430 out there with a jacket and weights up to 400 grs. Best I could do is resize the 410 gr .435 WR down to .430 and that's not really a wildcat....more like a "pet".

Have you tried contacting Bill Noody at Northern Precision? He has experience making .429" bullets to order.

George

Sabot,

Your post about the 416 Remington intrigued me, coupled with the fact that I will actually fire one off on Saturday. Anyway, I ran some load data through my software and came up with this for the 416 Rem.

24" barrel was used for both calculations

400 gr Hornady soft point
88 grains of H4350
Load density - 107.5%
Muzzle velocity - 2341 fps
Chamber pressure - 49,085 psi

400 gr Hornady soft point
91 grains of H4350
Load density - 111%
Muzzle velocity - 2407 fps
Chamber pressure - 52,307 psi

According to my software it would be VERY difficult to obtain 2450 fps with a 400 grain bullet using H4350 powder in a 416 Remington magnum with a 24" barrel. If you have real data that is contrary to this, please share it with me so I can refine my software model.

The software indicates that both H4895 and VARGET are far better choices, and would easily reach 2450 fps while maintaining pressure below the SAAMI specification maximum.


ASS_CLOWN

It is better to pick a suitable cartridge that allows the use of good hunting bullets, and then finding other options for cheap practice rounds.

Practical is a 416 rem mag and getting a cast bullet mold or two for practice. For a tad more money you could get a .416 swadge die, and bump up .410 pistol bullets. This is a much better route than using a too small case and poor hunting bullets just to use cheap practice bullets.

I've never loaded for a 416 rem, but did have an interesting experience comparing Varge to H-4350 in a 350 Rigby, which is more or less the H&H case sans belt. I loaded up some 250 gr jacketed bullets, and found that both 66 gr Varget and 72 gr H-4350 would produce 2700 fps. The interesting thing was, while the Varget loads were tollerable to shoot, the 4350 loads produced a rude slap in the face from the stock.

I had a similar experience with my previous 458 Lott when working up 500 gr loads with RL-15 and VV N550. Max load with RL-15 was 87 gr for 2280 fps, I don't recall the N-550 load, maybe 92 gr and all it would do was 2200 fps. The recoil from the slower burning N550 was noteably stronger.

I wouldn't use either of the 4350's in an full length H&H belted case. The powders for calibers 35 up to 45 really seem to be RL 15 and Varget.