Many believe that in actual field use impactvelocity around 2300-2400 f/sec will give most penetration (only solids). On paper the higher velocity will give the better penetration everything else being equal (and bullets not failing..).
Will a 460 Wby and the 577 T-rex penetrate better on game at 2450 f/sec instead of 2600 ???
Can anyone explain why ?

Recognizing that bullet integrity is all important and most are caused by bullet failure and that velocity is the demon of bullet failure we can then assume that hi-velocity is great if the bullet does not come apart? or can we?

I am sure in my mind that solids do strange things such as turn, tumble, fly off course when contact velocity is beyond 2400 ft. and I prefer 2300 to 2350 just to be safe.

Keep in mind that a solid at 2350 or 3000 FPS that performs correctly, has about the same effect on game, of course this does not apply to soft point bullets...

With softs hi-velocity destroys bullets of most makes on ocassion, even if it does nothing more than blow the petals off the monolithics which I see as destroying the integrity of the bullet. Regardless of the effect on game, that is not what the bullet is designed to do, so it is bullet failure. Fortunatly most game is killed when this happens, but that is not the point in question...

My assesment is based only on shooting the big animals of Africa such as elephant and buffalo, perhaps Lion. I am a firm believer in the 2300 to 2400 FPS theory, and I can only base that on my own observations; what I have read; and from conversations with professionals that have shot a lot of the big stuff...

I have no use for ultra velocity in big bores and cannot understand why anyone would that has any experience at all...

I love the 460 Wby cartridge because it can be loaded to 2400 FPS and have extremely low pressure and very mild recoil because of that..I do not like the Wby rifles however but thats neither here nor there.

Ulrik,

Another factor is twist. Art Alphin said his research shows a faster twist (within reason) yields deeper penetration, perhaps due to better stability of the bullet as it pushes its way through flesh, or perhaps because he was using brass bullets that are longer for any given weight.

Hi
Would I have a moore powerful "big five" weapon, if I load my .458 with solid bullets light enough to get in to the 2300/2400 fps area?
In the example above i mean the same bullet but shorter/lighter.

I think one must go down to 400 gr bullets te get 2400 fps.

//

Softlead,

NO - don�t use 400 grs in 458 cal.(much better to use 500 grs at 2050-2100 f/s)
Instead consider to rechamber your rifle to 458 Lott and get the vel. you want with a 500 grainer

Ray:

Does your recommendation for loading to 2400 fps hold true for the .375 as well? Using the .375 Ackley for buffalo, what bullet would you use, and at what velocity?

Thanks.

Ray et al:

Incidentally, I have had good results with the .308 Failsafe, and was thinking of using the Failsafe for everything in the .375. I had an interesting phone conversation with Ross Seyfried, who said the 270 grain Failsafe would go through both shoulders of a buffalo -- no need for the 300. But I still am curious about the optimum velocity for that bullet.

[ 10-01-2002, 22:03: Message edited by: KLN ]

Damn. I forgot the most important point.

At a certain velocity, with each powder, in each rifle, you end up with greatly increased pressure, with little increase in bullet velocity.

In other words, you take a powder and put so much into a small case, with a heavy bullet, that the pressure spikes to very high levels. Let's say for example you have a 40k Cup rifle. You load it so the pressure goes up to 60k cup. While you have increased the pressure by 50%, your bullet speed is going to increase, for example, from 2400 to 2600, and that's optimistic, a % increase
of very little value, and, it threatens bullet integrity, as well. You will experience a tremendous increase in recoil, as you start to push to really high pressures. The end result is a great increase in recoil, due to pressure, with a terminal velocity increase that is hardly noticeable to the subject it's being used on.

Plus, you burn up your barrel, as well.
s

PS

Now where did I put those Federal 2700 fps 270 grain soft points? That keep busting up my shoulder???

Socrates, that Linebaugh article was very interesting. Much of my experience with pressure/velocity is based shooting tens of thousands of big-bore handgun rounds. I do know that a 454 Casull loaded to 60,000 psi is one of the hardest kicking guns I have ever shot (I haven't fired one of Linebaugh's 475s or 500s though). I cannot say how much of this recoil can be attributed to pressure. After all, a 320 grain bullet at 1700 fps in a 3 pound gun is going to create some recoil. But in my experience, there seems to be a recoil/pressure connection.

Linebaugh built a 45 Colt for me, on a Seville frame, that will work at above Casull pressure loads, if, I'm dumb enough to do it.

the Cylinder is plenty strong, it's the Seville frame that might give way.

I use Tim Sundle's BuffaloBore Ammo in the gun, using the heavy colt loads, 325 grain bullets, at around 1350 out of a 6 inch gun, I believe. Or, his hollow point 260 grain bullets, at 1450.

I've also used his downloaded Casull stuff, same bullet, but at 1500 fps.

The gun handled, for a long time, a full case of H110, and 230 grain very hard cast bullets.

Even with a very tight crimp, they would rattle loose, every once in awhile.

I really think, at least with H 110, and heavy lead bullets, over 1200-1300 fps, with a heavy bullet just doesn't make much sense, unless you have the urge to kill a Cape Buffalo with a 6 gun.

Give Ross Seyfried a call back, and ask him to tell you the story about his cape buffalo, with a sister gun to mine(45 Seville, H110 27.5 grains, and a 345 grain Keith style bullet, for around 1550).

Suffice to say, that in my opinion, the higher pressures just aren't worth it.

If you need more bullet weight, or speed, go up in caliber.

I believe a 475 more then doubles the 454's recoil. The bullets are much heavier, and the
cases are much larger.

Anyway, my experience with 223, 308 and 30-06 was at a certain point, the increase in velocity limited accuracy, and threatened to destroy bullet integrity, plus, max loads tended to
recoil what I thought was a very unreasonable amount, for a minute increase in bullet speed.

The guys around here tend to find 2200-2400 to be ideal speeds for penetration on very large game.

Sides, I KNOW nothing I want to put to my shoulder is going to 'shock' a buffalo, or elephant, so I have to rely on penetration.

I think the ideal big game rifle would be the 2 bore. 1.3 inches in diameter, at 3550 grains, it goes through, leaving a huge wound channel, and keeps on going. Course the 400 pounds of recoil, and the cost of the gun aside, you might look at the ballistics of that round. 1300-1500 fps was sufficent to accomplish what needed to be done.

I suspect, BC aside, the real key to penetration is the bullet WEIGHT, and design, and material.

I strongly suspect a Keith style 500 grain bullet, at around 2200-2400 fps is sufficent to penetrate, straight through, most game animals.

I like the general sensibility of the old timers.

They used a reasonable amount of powder, and bullet weight for the caliber, without excessive
pressure. 375 H&H, etc. are relatively low pressure rounds(40,000 cup standard).

I suspect common sense dictates lots of stuff in firearms, and the added recoil, and slight increase in velocity, over 40,000 cup just didn't make sense. When the brits needed more killing power, they sensibly increased both caliber, and case capacity, keeping the pressure pretty much the same. John L has done pretty much the same with his 475 and 500.

I think high pressure, high velocity rifles can be used for specific game, that require long range shots. However, these are not the conditions when hunting most dangerous game.

Tim Sundles suggested the only really valid time for some of the radical magnums, similar to wbys, are for long shots at brown bear, or other large game, that got that way because they were smart enough not to get within 400 yards of a human with a rifle.

I do think a high velocity, light bullet, high pressure setup makes sense, provided you don't min replacing barrels every once in a while.

s

Not too much argument here, Socrates. I was a teenager when I did most of my handgun hunting. At the time, the Casull was my dad's hunting gun. He used an LBT 320 LFN at the previously mentioned 1700 fps for a little while, and he also used a 340 grain LBT (WFN I believe--can't remember for sure). The 340 grain was similar to Seyfried's load at 1550 fps. My dad talked to Veral Smith of LBT about his 1700 fps load. I believe Smith told him that velocity was too high because his bullets performed best when pushed to a maximum of about 1500 fps. He said you lose penetration after that. I assume you could push one of the harder rifle solids significantly faster before experiencing this phonomena. I assume that is where the 2400 fps maximum theory comes in for DGR rifles. Incidentally, I believe Linebaugh told my dad he had machined 475 and 500 flatnoses out of bronze or copper or some such material for use on cape buffalo.

Concerning rifles, my next purchase will probably be a 9.3x62. I like the idea of pushing a heavy, high-sectional density bullet at around 2400-2450 fps. Although, it will probably require 55,000 psi to get a 286 grain to that velocity.

As far as the 475 having twice the recoil of the 454, that is animal I don't want any part of. I could shoot the hot-loaded 454 accurately, but it wasn't fun, and it required a great deal of concentration. I remember a couple of experienced sixgunners receiveing a front-sight-shaped tattoo in the tops of their heads from that revolver.

Mr. MD:
We are on the same path, but what kind of gun was your Dad using to get that kind of velocity with a 320 grain bullet?

With a 45 colt, using a full case of h110, I put 230 grain hardball out, of a 6 inch barrel, at about 1700 fps. I hate to think of the recoil on your rounds.

It's funny. I have a ream of letters, that I cherish, from John L. on an old, beat up typewriter, that answered a whole bunch of questions from a very green handgun kid.

After all that, and John L coming out with the 475 and 500, I can't afford one, and, worse, I don't even think I want one.

He would tell me 1200 fps, to 1500 fps, with a proper lead bullet, would kill anything I would ever see.

I suspect his 475 and 500 are best with a very heavy, 375 to 500 grain bullet, at a 1100-1200 fps mark.

I will say that I keep my heavy sessions with the seville to only certain situations. If someone has a 357 snubby, 44 magnum, etc, that are high pressure, and make a lot of noise, I pull out the heavy loads, and start shooting.

I do like Tim's 260 grain hollow points, at about 1500 out of my gun. I figure if the bullet expands, great, and, if not, who cares? It's still a 45 caliber hole.

I use lots of 22 long rifle, in both pistol, and rifle, to keep myself from flinching too much with the heavy stuff.

Still, I like your choice of rifles, but would suggest a 375 H&H. It can both push the 270-300 grain bullets to high velocity, with relatively low pressure, and, it can, with proper powders, provide really great accuracy, and penetration, using 300 grain solids, and good powders.

Sides, if you get bored, a CZ 550 is THE action for converting to larger caliber rifles.

When things ease up a bit, I'm out to get a 458, with a longer barrel.

I'll then rebore to 458 AIM, and go from there.

I do like 45.

By the way, I put this question to Paco Kelly and the guys, and Paco used something like a 303, or some such caliber, with a very hard cast bullet, and proper lube, in the 2200-2400 fps range, and the elephant he shot did not understand the difference in bullet comp. Keith style bullet, long, flat nosed, and skinny, but it did the job.

Course, if I have a list of guys to get in a gun fight with, Paco Kelly, and Lee Jurras, are both off the list, at the bottom. I'm sure Paco could REALLY shoot, so, perhaps mere mortals might have a hard time doing the same...
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