I am planning a buff hunt for '04 and could do with some advice on calibre. I have little experience of big bores, as I usually hunt in RSA with 300WM and 375H&H, both incidentally on my licence as "Not for use in UK". I will be taking a 7x64 with me next month. I have no problem with recoil of 375. I feel a bigger gun might be wiser for buff. Ammo for both is available in UK as is a reasonable choice of bolt action rifles.
Is there a marked increase in felt recoil from 375 to 416/458?
And is there much to choose between the two cartridges?
I have checked ballistic tables so am up to speed with trajectory, velocity and energy.
Regrads
Robert
This post has a slight resemblance to some referred to as"troll-like". Apologies for this; I don't know what a troll is in this context but can infer an unflattering definition!

Robert,

I don't think it's troll-like. It's a good question, one I'm interested in as I'll soon have a functional Lott, and want a Rigby too.

I think the answer has more than one element. One is how shootable -- the Rigby would win that one IMO. The other is how effective -- most would probably give that to the Lott. The answer for you is then 'which one can you shoot best, allowing quick recovery and followup shots if necessary?' If there is no significant difference, then pick the bigger one.

I'll be watching with interest to see what everyone else says.

Todd

Rob,

Ask your friends or fellow club members to let you shoot their Lotts and Rigbys. The Lott's recoil is likely to leave an impression on you. To get the Lott's recoil down, you'll either add weight that you have to carry all day or a muzzle brake (which is spelled b-r-a-k-e) that detracts from the aesthetics of the rifle in certain humble opinions.

H. C.

As a visiting hunter, I'd go with the 416. If I were the PH I'd go with the 458 Lott. I think the Rigby is more flexible and offers lighter recoil (but still a noticeable amount). The Lott is a more specialized weapon that is getting into the realm of a stopping cartridge.

I've got a new Rigby in the works, but am still thinking about a Lott as well. For what real purpose I don't know, but it's an inspiring round.

Robert,

There is a lot of difference in felt recoil between the 416 Rigby and the 458 Lott. If you want a scoped rifle, the Rigby is probably the better choice--Lotts have a bit of a reputation for ruining scopes. The Ribgy is a better all around cartridge--the Lott is a shorter range cartridge. Pay your $, take your choice!

Good Hunting,

Thanks for tip so far. Whilst I would love to try others' guns it's not so easy here! I don't know anyone with rifles over .375. Getting rifles here one needs to convince police that one has a need and somewhere to use it. Result is hunting calibres limited by available game, and biggest we have is red deer.
Even exchanging one weapon for another of exactly same calibre need a formal variation of licence, signed photos, audit of security and amount of ammo etc. This is why one needs to get it right first time- there's no easy way out once the paperwork is done.
The Rigby is looking more tempting. How nice - I can be patriotic.
My thanks again
Robert
I shall now go in search of local dg with suitable rifle. (foxes; 22 Hornet!)

While I love the truly Big Bores- .600 and Up! The fact is that nearly all my DG experience in Africa has been with a .416 Rigby. With a good bullet and with good shot placement, YOU NEED Nothing more. That's the absolute truth. A Bigger Bore MIGHT help in a Charge or a marginal situation, but I would not bet on it. The key is shot placement and a Rigby has a recoil level that allows you to do just that with confidence. Trust me , a Lott is a much tougher gun to shoot as well as a Rigby even in the hands of an expert! With that said, the Rigby is a bit more versatile in that you can make a 150yrd shot with it if necessary, while forgetaboutit with a Lott! In Africa, it's often the gun in your hand that gets used as there may be no time to switch rifles.-Rob

Robert:

I think there is a marked increase in felt recoil between a 375 H&H and a 416 Rigby/Remington and of course the 45 Magnums. There are however, some very wicked recoiling 375 calibers out there like the 378 Weatherby.

I use a scope and am very very keen on avoiding being hit in the face by the scope during recoil. I saw a gentleman hit in face by his scope shooting a 378 Weatherby. The injury required an immediate trip to the hospital. Ballistics of a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps are about my limit of comfort for scope use. So the 416's are just right for me.

B

rdash:

Even though I have a Lott and not a .416 Rigby, I would go with the Rigby for the reasons given by ForrestB. In fact, were it not for the deal I got on my Lott, I'd have a Rigby now instead. I have used the Lott in Africa, and if you understand its trajectory and ballistics, it is a solid 250 yard rifle with 500-grain bullets. If you do go with the Lott and put a scope on it, I would recommend the Leuplod 2X compact rifle scope, as the Lott is very hard on scopes.

Dave

If you are more of a casual hunter I would suggest you buy the 416 Rigby. It will be much more versitile. Don't underestimate the power of a 416 Rigby, several very famous Professional Hunters and poachers, for that matter, have carried 416 Rigby's and done very well with it. In the event you would not have a PH it may be a different case. I still think you would handle the Rigby better as the recoil of the Lott will be much more noticable than the Rigby.

Good Hunting, "Z"

Probably comes down to which one gives the most fire to your imagination. The Lott is tougher on scopes, but lots of guns that size manage to keep scopes intact and functioning. Might have to try a couple of scopes to find one that's durable enough. I have a 470 double with a Schmidt&Bender, and I highly recommend that scope. I also have a 458 Win that I put a Leupold 1.5-4x on, and had no trouble. I've only killed two buffalo - one with each of these rifles - but based on my limited experience, it would be tough to feel over-gunned!

On the other hand, I've a good friend who has a video out on his collecting the big 5. He took a 470 double and a 416 Rigby and truly preferred the penetration of the Rigby. I use the 470 for comparison since it's close to the Lott in bllet weight and velocity, though a bit less. Anyway,he recently bought another double rifle, in 500/416. Again he opted for penetration that he felt the larger calibers don't provide.

You may want to make the choice based on the difference between a dangerous game rifle and a stopping rifle. If the 375 doesn't make you whimper, recoil should be manageable for either of your choices.

Good luck and keep the UK gun owners's flag fllying.

Since you already have a 375 then I would just use that, load up some 350 gr. Woodleighs and your in buffalo business...Don't ever think the 375 with a good solid like the GS Flat nose isn't a Buffalo gun, it is.....

The 458 Lott is the more powerful of the 3, the 416 Rigby or Remington is more than adequate, but so is your 375 H&H....

If I wanted to shoot a Buffalo, and they were all on the table, I would just grab the one nearest me, and a pocket full of shells...bullet placement and bullet construction is what you should be concerned with, not caliber...

rdash,

The wife and I are also going on safari in 2004 to Tanzania and Buffalo is number one on our list. We are taking for the wife her M70 .30-06 and her Ruger M77 .375 H&H. For me I'm taking my old friend .300 Weatherby Magnum Deluxe and my Ruger M77 .416 Rigby. Between the Lott and the Rigby, I believe that you'll be happier with the Rigby. I rifles of the same weight the Lott does have more recoil(about 10 to 15 lbs.) more than the .416 Rigby, 400 gr. at 2,600 fps. in a 10.0 lb. rifle which has 63 lbs. of recoil. The .375 H&H has about 20 lbs. less recoil in a rifle that weights about a pound less. Sure the .375 H&H will do the job but the .416 will make you feel more secure. Lawdog

I had a really nice Lott made up on a M70 and while I am not recoil shy, the Lott was out of my fun zone. It only weighed 9.25# which probably didn't help. I sold it & am having a .404 made. I feel it will be more user friendly w/ a scope @ about 10# ready to rock.
I would go w/ a .40 of some flavor. While I haven't hunted buff. yet, friends of mine who have, tell me the .40+ carts. hit them alot harder. That' why Ray loves his .400.

[ 03-10-2003, 05:15: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Let's talk real life...

IF you reload (and you would pretty much have to)
You can get the lott to 2300 fps with a 500gr bullet, and that's ALL THERE IS... Sure, it's only 150 fps out of the NE rounds, but it's still a good choice.. don't even think about the 400 gr bullet, as this is a DGR and you want SD.

but, the 416 rigby,.. you CAN load it to 416 weatherby... start with those bottom loads, and go.

400 gr barnes or hornady (don't have data on the woodleighs) at 2575, 1 hole groups with a scope at 50, and 1/2" at 100... and it's just a CZ rebeded, new pad, and some lead. That's 2200+fps past 150 yards... hell, that's 30-06 trajectory.. and and easy 200-250 yard gun, with a rest.

ammo is in africa for the rigby, if you loose yours.

myself (heh) think that a 375 and a 500 jeffery are the perfect boltgun combo... 535gr at 2350.

jeffe

My thanks again.
The Lott sounds as if it's going to be uncomfortable and I really don't want to develop a flinch. I'm OK with my 375 (M70 Safari with S&B 1.5-4x) so Rigby should be tolerable.
I do not reload my own, but this may become necessary as time goes on.
Had a message from Jim Hack'z who takes his 458 to RSA and he reckons I should stick with 375. View is that as I'm a visiting (and that but once a year) hunter why use more? Checked his gun last year at Landelani and it was quite envy inducing!
I entirely take the point about shot placement and accuracy. It's one reason why I am out every day here after bunnies/foxes and deer with small calibres - if you can kill rabbits cleanly with 22 RF at 75-80 yards, larger targets aren't too challenging. I find it's lack of familarity on daily basis with larger calibres that cause potential for flinch and hence inaccuracy. I like a morning on a range out there before hunting in Africa. Last time my licence came up for renewal I had a restriction put in disallowing my 300WM and 375 for any use in UK save at Defence Ministry approved range with solid rounds; the nearest one is quite a way away.
I'll put in application this week for a 416 Rigby. Thanks, chaps!
Regards
Robert
ps - anyone hunting in Namibia this May? I'll be at Byseewah 21/5 for a time.
and

Maybe if you can get both and fire them and see which one suits you best if I were hunting buff I would lean towards the lott if I was taking a lighter rifle along for a do-all it would be the .416.

A 458 Lott with a properly designed express stock will have less felt recoil than an out-of-the-box cz550 in 416 rigby.

I was reckoning on Heym Express for this one. Already have a representative selection from US/Europe factory makers. Lust stirring for Precision Rifles of Scotland, which really look good. Once children are off the school fee account I can get a bit more ambitious. How about match the designer(long dead) to the maker?
Regards
Robert(expansive after hunting Aloxe Corton out of cellar - time zones count!)

Robert,

JJHack is right, but in your shoes I'd still take the opportunity to get a Rigby. You won't mind the additional recoil. I have found that a 400gr bullet at 2400 fps is very manageable in your average rifle. It will make you feel like you are packing a real DGR too, which is part of the overall experience, right?

BTW, the term troll comes from a fishing reference. People that post loaded questions (like bait) with the intent to draw a reaction, are called trolls.

Canuck

ps: I think my sides are still sore from our evening of entertainment at Landelani. I don't think anyone has ever had me laughing so hard! Thank you for that - it is one of my favorite memories from my hunt. Cheers.

Canuck,
Good to hear from you. It was a good evening! This May I'm hunting in Namibia, but will be back to Landelani in a year or two. With a 416 Rigby!
Best wishes
Robert