Hi all,

I have wanted to buy a 416 Rigby for a few years now, but I am not partial to Ruger(nothing wrong with them, just like Winchester better) and they make the only Rigby I can afford. However, I was thinking that I could buy a 338 win and rebarrel it or a 458 and have a new barrel put on it for a reasonable price.

I would like comments on either option and recomendations on who can do it and do it well. I have never had a gun even worked on at a gunsmith, so I would really appreciate any recomendations on this.

I would also like to know what twist rate anyone thinks would do well with this gun and any other technical info that I should know to have done.

Finally, which model 70 would should I buy to do this with? I know I am asking a lot of info, but I could sure use the help.

Thanks

Hunter,

If I was you I would try and get a Model 70 in 375 Stainless and rebarrel that to 416 Remington.

Of course if you want a blued rifle then the 375s are going to cost more.

A Model 70 in 7mm Rem, 300 Win or 338 Win is an easy candidate to rebarrel to 416 Taylor. You can also have a Model 70 in those calibers altered so that it can take the 416 Remington but you arwe getting into a messier area. However there is a gunsmith on the forum called John Ricks who successfully converted the short magnum Model 70s to take th longer 416 Remington.

Have you considered a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby. Rifle is the right price. Certainly brass is more expensive but will last forever with the low pressure loads you are likely to be using. You will also save on rebarreling costs.

Mike

Hunter,
I had good luck with a No. 4 sporter contour Shilen stainless 1 in 14" twist. The standard 416 twist is the 14". I get good velocity and accuracy and no hint of excess pressure: sub-MOA 2400 fps with 400 grain bullets and 2700 fps with 300 grain bullets from my 26" barrel. Subtract 50 fps if 24" barrel.

Others have done well with a 1 in 12" twist.

Either one will do, IMHO.

I think I would go with a 338 to rebarrel.

I used a Ruger Mark II Stainless 338 Win.Mag. to rebarrel. Totally different bedding system from the lousy Ruger 416 Rigby 77 Magnum recoil plate on the barrel stuff.

There is no finer action than the short magnum Ruger Mark II Model 77. Tee hee!

I know where you can get a CZ 550 416 Rigby for $599. They gotta discount them to get us hillbillies to buy them.

Hunter: In 1988 I decided on a .416Taylor and have never looked back. The rifle began "life" as a .264 pre '64 M-70. I had a 25" Douglas barrel installed (1-14 twist) and using my handloads, the rifle produces velocities just a smidge above 2400fps with 400gr bullets. I don't fool around with the lighter bullets, as I believe the 400gr is adequate for anything on the planet. This .416Taylor has dispatched everything from duiker to elephant. I'm prejudiced, but go with the M-70 action, as your 'smith will have less work involved to make it "run" properly. Now, having said that....you'll be better off buying a new Winchester in .416 Remington. In the long run, it'll be a lot less expensive, and you can certainly achieve greater velocities than the Taylor by handloading. Either way, the 40 is a super calibre. Sakubona, JLS

Here's a picture of my Winchester M70 Classic based 416 Taylor...



She started life as a 300 Win Mag. The barrel is a 23" Douglas, NECG iron sights, Leupold 2.5-8x scope. The rings have since been upgraded to Leupold QR's and a Winchester factory composite stock was put on. The plastic stock, took whatever "class" a stainless rifle can have, completely out of the picture.

Yes, it's a lefty, the picture has not been reversed.

Thanks for the advice so far.

The reason I am thinking of starting with a .338 or a .458 is that, the .416 Taylor cartridges should run through the magazine with out having to modify the magazine or the bolt face. Is this correct?

Also, if we rebarrel the .338, will the barrel metal be too thin in places? Would I be better off, buying a new barrel? Who makes good barrels?

Also, I am not familar with the CZ-550, I had never even heard of them until reading this forum today. Are they any good? I live in Idaho, US, and have not seen one at any gun shop around here.

As far as the .416 Rem goes, I know it will cost me more, but the .416 Taylor just calls to me.

Hunter,
I think you are mixing up the term "rebore" with "rebarrel."

Rebore a barrel only if it is very special externally for some reason that you want to preserve the appearance of.

Some 338 barrels could be rebored to .416 but some could not. You need a minimum muzzle diameter of 0.666" for a 416 in my opinion. Heavier is better.

My Ruger 338 converted to 416 Taylor fed flawlessly. But then those Rugers usually are flawless at everything they do.

The CZ 550 Magnum is a fine rifle for the 416 Rigby or 375 H&H length and up.

Here is the way I prefer to build my ballistic machines:

Short magnum (338 Win.Mag., etc.): Ruger Mark II Stainless action.

375 H&H based: Winchester Model 70, preferably Pre-64, but the Classic is O.K., stainless or blue.

404 Jeffery and larger, up to 585 Nyati: CZ 550

Thanks, I was mixed up. I was using the same term to mean two different things. I did mean rebore with the 338 and rebarrel with the 458. I am new to this side the shooting sports. I have reloaded quite a bit and hunted quite a bit, but I have not had to have anything built before.

Ok, so if your Ruger 338 fed well, I can hopefully assume the same from a Winchester. What I am thinking is I can buy the Win safari Express Model 70 in a 458 and have it rebarreled. This way, minimal work on action and magazine and the action will also already have two recoil lugs which should help. Then I need to buy a new barrel and have it fitted to the gun.

Am I missing steps, or would this work ok? Could the new barrel work with the action and stock on the Win, or would the stock have to be modified for the new barrel.

Dennis

Hunter,

Before buying a 458 to convert to 416 Taylor, I would check with someone on the forum who has a crrent M70 458 to see if it will feed bottle neck calibers OK. Your 416 Taylor is a bottle neck buta 458 is straight, like a big 22 magnum. Also a 458 will cost you a lot more to get the basic stock and action than will be the case for the 300 or 338.

The 2nd recoil lug is part of the barrel, not the action.

Actually I would be happy with a Model 70 in 416 Taylor without the second barrel lug. Although if you started with a Model 70 in say 300 or 338, then it would be wise to have a cross bolt put in the stock behind the recoil lug area. They are already there in the 375, 416 Remington and 458 stocks.

Mike

DaggaRon,
Love to hear there is another Ruger lover out there!! I've used 2 Ruger stainless .338's for conversion...a .375/.338 and a .30/338. Great rifles with Pac-Nor barrels, and they always feed without a hitch!

I have bee reading through past topics in this forum as I just discovered it yesterday, and I found a few topics where most people are not that impressed with the new winchesters.

If this is the case, is Ruger my best option to go with?

Thanks

Hunter,

I currenty have 4 Rugers in the gun safe, 416 Taylor, 338 Win Mag, 7x57 and 7mm Mag.

I used a 338 win to build my 416 Taylor. I put a 26" Shilen Match Grade Barrel 1 in 14 twist on it. Bedded the action, free floated the barrel and my smith worked on the trigger and set it at 2.5 lbs, express sights and 1.75-5x Burris. Not much feed ramp and rail work was required.I just got the rifle back and am working on loads etc.

I like the Rugers as a donner rifles with the same amount of work as a standard rifle they will shoot 1.5-1" all day long. I mean we are talking hunting rifles I personally can't shoot any better than that in the field.

The .416 Taylor is an easy conversion. I suggest you find a Win Mod 70 action SA magnum, and buy a shilen number #5 barrel. This should be a piece of cake. I imagine it will require a little ramp and maybe some rail work but otherwise no problem.-Rob

Hunter,

If you start with a Safari Express model, you'll lose the second recoil lug (not a big deal, and maybe a blessing) and iron sights when you rebarrel.

My rifle (pictured above) started out as a 300 Win Mag. What's most important in this conversion, is that the bolt has the proper "face" for the intended cartridge. Any rifle originally chambered for one of the "belted magnums" will have the proper bolt face. The original feed rails on my M70 Classic would feed the 416 Taylor cartridges, but only when loaded with certain (pointy) bullets. Large round nose bullets, like the 400gr Hornady RNs would hang up on the extractor cutout up in the chamber.

My point being that no matter what rifle, or original cartridge that rifle was chambered in, your gunsmith should modify the feed rails to feed those cartridges smoothly and reliably. That's why it's a good idea to choose a gunsmith who has a history of working on the brand of rifle you choose, and also does work on big bore, dangerous game type rifles. Just like you wouldn't take your Chevy to a Ford dealership for repair, nor should you take a winchester to a gunsmith who works on Remingtons most the time. Sure, they're both mechanics, but they do much better working on what they know best.

Here's another picture, of the 416 cartridge...



left to right
new 458 Win Mag brass
resized in a full length 416 Taylor die
fireformed in my rifle (full loads, not reduced)
loaded with 400gr Partition (my rifle doesn't like those)

About the barrel to stock fit...

I'm no expert there, but if your rifle started life as a 458 Win Mag, you could specify that the new barrel have the smae contour as the original. It may even be possible to do that with a 338 Win Mag rifle. Of course the barrel would be much thinner, and the recoil would be harder.

Howdy Hunter, and everyone
The 416 taylor is a great round, especially of you already have the action you want rebarreled. I want to first help you with getting it, and then try and talk you out of it. Some of you will disagree with me, but remember, this is his FIRST custom, not 10th.
Call Pacnor for your barrel(www.pac-nor.com), it can be done prefitted and will saves you bucks with your gunsmith, as he wont need to buy or rent a reamer, just headspace gages from any other short mag. If you get the model 70 classic, you should get either the 338 or 458,for feed reasons. I would suggest you get a 23.5" tube, about #5 conture. It'll finish up about 22.25 inch, and you can get 2300-2350 easy with the 400 gr hornady.
Speaking of which, www.lockstock.com has hornady blems for about 12� each.
Then, get a kick-eez pad, of 15/16 or 1 1/8 inch from brownells. You won't need a mercury tube, as it just doesn't kick all that much. Your gunsmith should measure you for it, and, if you are over about 6' tall, the 13.5 will be TOO SHORT to fit you. (rubs scope cut scare from 416 rem and short stock)
If you are going to keep you orginal stock, have the front recoil lug/cross bolt installed, at a mininmum, aloung with steel bedding the front and rear lugs. You can have the rear one done, too, but that's just for looks in a taylor.
Your idea weight, depending on use, should be about 9.75 before scope. Speaking of scopes, use first rate scope mounts, and a long eye relief scope, if you are going to put glass on it. The leopulds may not have the best eye relief, but they will hold together, for a taylor.
Of sights and men. I would strongly suggest you put iron sights back on it. Any gunsmith can mount and meausure them. If you put them on, make sure they are sighted in. NECG masterpiece sure are pretty, but used remington's will cost you about 30 bucks plus install.
Stocks... whew, this is where it goes crazy. If the stock comes close to fitting you, change the pad and have fun. If it doesn't... well, there's tons of choices, and they all cost money. If you have to replace the stock, and like cheap, try richard's microfit, www.rifles-stocks.com. Their laminates will hold up to lots of abuse, and they are fair on the woods. Just downgrade 1 for a reality check. Replacing the stock is easily the longest part of this excerise. it takes 6-8 weeks for them to deliver, and would take a gunnut about a whole weekend to fit and bed. My suggestion? Order a lam stock from them, and give it a try. It's only 100 bucks, and tons of experence for the $$$. Even if you hate it, you'll have done it, and won't have ruined a high dollar stock. Oh, if you order a new stock, you can have them mount a decell pad and give you a round forearm (great for off hand shooting). Try the "old classic" if you plan on iron sights, and the modern one if you are you are scope along.
One other suggestion.. the ebony tip and cap looks great, without the white line and with a 90 degree mount.
If you are piecing it together, you can go to www.gunbroker.com and do a search on "custom blueing job" the spelling error is there. Mark can do a GREAT matte finish for about 100buck, round trip.
Enough of that, let's talk about the last taylor I built. The customer wanted it on a cz, with a 22 in barrel, and i measured him at 14.25 (he's barely 6', but gangly) It finished out at 9.75 with scope, and is a pleasure to shoot.
Now, to talk you out of it.
The brass is about a buck each
it's going to cost, at least, and i mean a bare minimum, of 700 bucks, past the cost of the action, to get it. Barrel at 250, bluing at 100, pad at 50 (including shipping) 100 for mounted remington sights, 25 for steel bedding kit, and some money for your gunsmith. Seems I always get the short end on that part, too.
You can get a cz in 416 rigby for 599 on gun broker, all day long. But the brass is STILL over a buck.
You can get a winchester 70 in 416 rem for about 850. I've got that one, and it's too dang light and too dang short for full power loads. I restocked it, tubed it, and kick-eez.. feels like a 30-06 now, and weighs 10.75 with leupold. Can carry it for days.
If you resize brass, it can be a hassle to keep the head stamps sorted and the oringial caliber's seperated, as they have different case capacities.
If you like the recoil,with a rigby you can load (according to barnes) to much higher vel's than the classic loads.
hech, a 416 weatherby (which WILL loosen your teeth without a brake or some added weight) would cost you less over all.
Dies will be a little hard to get, but CH4D can have them to you in a week. Dave is a great guy over there.

i like em all. The last pig hunt we went on was a 557 nitro, a 416 riby, a 416 rem, and a 416 taylor.. with a blr in 284 batting cleanup.

Let's put it in a nutshell, get the gun you want, and shoot it lots. It'll cost more in the long wrong, but you could be happier with a gun you built (okay, commisioned) than one off the shelf. If you DO get a CZ, tell the seller you want the best looking wood he has. It won't please you, but it'll be better than the sap wood that frequently comes with the stock.
good hunting
jeffe

Thanks to all for the Info. Jeffeosso, your reply was really helpfull. I have actually been wondering about getting a longer stock as I am actually 6'8" tall. I get tired of having to cramp my arms up on all my other guns and bend my long neck to far forward. I will gladly take any suggestions on who can get me a long enough stock.

Also, at the recomendation of another forum, I have talked to the Montana Rifleman Co. Really nice people so far. They build an action that they said would work great for the Taylor. Does any one have any experience with them? If I countinue to get good feed back on them, I may just have them build the action and barrel instead of buying a gun and having it rebarreled.

Thanks for all the advice again, this project would not be able to happen with out it, at least not without me getting screwed.
Thanks

Use a Mauser M98!!
I did, and that was perfect!!
I love my 416 Taylor.

Hunter,
It is interesting that you are thinking of doing this. I was thinking of the same thing but with a Ruger M-77. My main question was how it performed in Africa. Good to know it can take an elephant. I know Ross Sefreid spoke highly of it on Buffalo.

460 has the answer. I built my 416 on a VZ24 action ($100) and midway barrell ($89) and a semi inlet stock. My gunsmith opened the boltface in 20 minutes and I adjusted the feed rails in about an hour. It feeds great- even with rapid stroke two-shot groups, It is very accurate and the vz action has plenty of strength for even max loads. Someday when I'm swimming in cash I'll have a custom stock made up but the rifle itself will go unchanged.
Frank

Frank,
Have you ever seen the stock work that Paul's dad Al did?He was a fantastic stock maker.My dad has the prettiest rifle that Al and Paul made-a 7x57 on a Pre-64 Model 70 action,with Exhibition Grade English walnut from Persia.It'll knock your eye right out.

If you want a .416 Rigby get a cz 550, I have one, finally big bores for poor people like myself and there a good rifle in my opinion. It would work out cheaper to buy a new cz Rigby than to build the .416 taylor I reckon.

Hunter,
check this out. you might be able to talk someone into selling you a taylor
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001721

btw, without spacers, I can get a richard's microfit stocks to just a hair of 16.125. You have to order it with the extra long wood. It increases the lead time.. and is a RISK for your smaller friends to shoot, as the cheek piece is still far forward
good hunting
jeffe

Hey Brian. Yes I have seen his dad's work and I too own one of his rifles. It is left hand (I bought it for my lefty son) 7mm magnum with a very dark, very rich bastogne stock. The fit is absolutly incredible and it shoot 1/2 inch groups when we sandbag it. He was truly a craftsman. I have also seen one owned by the president of the Carson Mansion Men's association which is also richly engraved.
I only wish he had built some more big bores. I am in negotiations to purchase a 458 American he built just before passing away.
I really enjoy my vz24 big bores and feel lucky that Paul does the work for me. From reading these post it would seem that others are also taking advantage of this fine Mauser action.