If you were building a rifle in the 404/416 class which cartridge would you use, the 416 Remington, 416 Dakota or the 404 Jeffery? The rifle would be based on a Montana 1999 Rifle action or a Dakota 97 action? I kow that the 416 Rigby is the classic 416 but I do not want to use an action that large. What would you use and why?

Hi, All of the cartridges you listed are worthy considerations....and your choice will be one that,in the end, makes you feel warm and fuzzy.Given that this will be, more or less, a custom proposition,you should also consider the .416 Hoffman, a fine cartridge.

Bob

Thats real easy, both

I'd do a 404 and 416 rigby, but any will be just fine. Just depends on what you want.

hey ar...
404 on the montana.. get a nice stock, and the cost diff from the dakota in a 416 rem would more than offset the brass/dies price.

jeffe

Since I went w/ a .404jeffery on my M70, you know what my answer is going to be. It really depends on what you want out of the rifle. Components are more readily available in .416 plus .416rem. ammo is available. There are enough .423 bullets around though to keep you happy & in a pinch, brass can be made from .300, or .375RUM cases. I like jeffesos thought on a Montana action & spend the diff. of the Dakota on a killer stock.

The one I would NOT build is a .416 Remington. Sure it is a good enough cartridge, but I suspect it is dying in the marketplace.

I've also owned its clone for 40 years...a .404 Barnes Supreme (essentially same case, but .411 bullets) and just don't find it as user-friendly as the .404 Jeffrey. I think the Jeffrey is more flexible with either higher or lower pressure loads. I like that big, sturdy case, long neck, gentle shoulder, thick brass, etc.

Solved this for myself some 35 years ago when I got a .404 Jeffrey by....Jeffrey. Somehow that one disappeared, so got another .404 Jeff, a custom, built by Trevor Musgrave in South Africa.

I have no experience with the.416 Dakota, but don't need to...I am a hopeless fan of the older classics. And the .404 Jeffrey will do anything I want it to, especially with the newer bullets available these days.

You'll enjoy whatever you select...a delightful kind of pickle in which to be.

AC

I may create more questions than I give answers, but here goes

IF you use the Montana action, I'd go 416 Rem. I believe you can get another cartridge in the magazine, going with the standard magnum vs the 404/dakota fat size case, which is the same as the Ultra mag. Keep in mind that the Dakota/404 rim is larger than the Ultra mag rim.. ..Remington did the rebate case so it would fit a standard mag case head without any bolt alterations. One may have to open up the Montana bolt to properly feed a dakota/404 case IF you go Dakota action I don't think, being they chamber for Dakota cases there is going to be any problems. You will find a sizable difference in cost of brass

Problem no. 1 is that with a 1999 you cannot find a drop box magazine and that fat 404 Jefferys or dakota case needs a drop box..The 404 Jefferys is my favorite of all the big bores but not on a 1999 action...

For the 1999 action I would say that you have little choice but the 416 Remington, and regardless of what Remington does, there will always be brass for it...Mast tech makes it and others will also...

My two current favorites in this cartridge size are the .400 H&H (on the full-length H&H brass), and the .404 Dakota (on the .404 J brass). As Ray notes above if you stay with the M99, the easier path is to stay with something on the H&H case.

jim dodd

Jim,

What's the length of the 404 Dakota brass? Will this one fit nicely in a mauser?

Mike

The 404 Dakota brass is 2.550" long. Like a 416 Taylor on steroids, it is very efficient and potent.

I thought the old too-soft light bullet loads by Kynoch or DWM were 300 grains at 2600 fps. Could Mickey have erred on this detail? Or am I ignorant of a previous factory offering of 350 grainers in 404 Jeffery?

The 404 Dakota is definitely more powerful with any bullet loaded than any of the old 404 Jeffery factory offerings.

I have a hankering for a 416 Dakota, just to be contrary to the flock. Baaa.

416 Dakota could be the gun-of-the-month next week: best of both the 404 Jeffery (improved brass) and the .416 Rigby (bullet).

It is impossible to improve on the 416 Rigby however.

Ray, forgive my "ignorance" but being a southpaw, until Montana recently came along, I had little chance of owning a CRF action.And thus, ignorant of any Mauser style rifles. NOW, I'm like a kid in the candy store!

You mentioned the drop box mag not existing in the 1999 MRC. Are you refering to the style of mag box on the Rugers that hinge down and allow another round to be loaded after chambering a round?? And how many 404 rounds will the MRC 1999 hold?

Rip,
Why don't you run a Dakota reamer into your 404, then re- throat it. A 404/416 Dakota with .250 freebore would make for a flat shooting sheep rifle, and think of the fashion statement! I will bed it for you in a 20 oz High-Tech stock so you won't get a hernia hauling it up a mountain. You'd be so famous that Surefire would take a picture of you posing with one of their flashlights.
JCN

Rip

The 1910 Jeffery Catalog lists a 400 grain soft, solid and Jeffery split. The soft nosed bullets are recommended at the 2200fps velocity and the 400 grain solid at 2400 fps with the 'New Flat Strip High Velocity Cordite'.

Not sure of any factory loadings in 350 grain but I have loaded some 350 grain Woodleighs.

JohnCharlieNoak,
You are too funny! But I think you get it, except that there just aren't any good .423 caliber sheep bullets, except for the so-far-unobtainable-by-me GSC HV 320 grainer. So I will forego the 404/416 Dakota conversion ... for now.

Where can I get some of that New Flat Strip High Velocity Cordite?

Does it meter better than the old Cordite?

Orgon born,
The 1999 is a bit short on room for a 404 it seems and will only hold two rounds down without squeezing the liveing crap out of them is what I found...and if modified it would still only take two down....No one makes the drop box which must be wider and drop lower to hold extra ammo, but also to set up a proper "stack" which means the rounds are not in a too striaght stack that is problematic to feeding, they have to be staggered at a proper "stack" to feed properly...Also I am under the impression that the action is too thin in the cross section for a 404, and very little rail would exist if the conversion were done..It may very well work, but it would never be right IMO. That action is better suited to a 416 Rem or better yet a 9.3x62...

I bought one early on for just that reason, to build a 404 Jefferys, but I finally sold it to Jim Brockman and bought a CZ-550 in 375 with the money and am building my 404 on that action, and it is slicker than snot and holds 5 404s rounds down in that big drop box magazine, decked it out in irons on a Lothar Walther barrel and one of Jims laminated stocks off my English pattern. It will be nice..

If I was building a 404 today I would buy a CZ action only from Brownells and go from there...