Sold off my .416 Rem Mag and am looking at other options that are interesting to me. What size action would I need to begin with if I wanted to build a rifle in either of these calibers? Does one have an edge over the other?

Different animals; you can't build a 9.3x74R on a bolt action. 9.3x62, yes. (Ok, there is one on an Enfield, but it is not easy)
Completely different levels of bullet and power in the two.
Make a 9.3x62 on any action. 404, needs a larger one, or an opened up Mauser. Model 70s, and Enfields are good for 404s.
You need both; not much overlap.
Now, you can build a 400 Whelen on any action, and get a lot of power; almost like a 404. Personally, I never liked the 404 as it uses .423 bullets and I liked to standardize on .410/411. I actually have built 404s, with .410 barrels.
Look at a Whelen; far less drama involved with those and still lots of power.
I have barrels for both. Oberndorf 1930 pattern.

Thanks Tom, my 9.3 x74r is built on an Enfield, and yes its a lot of work! ......but if you want a bigger 9.3 theres always the 9.3x64

Roger

I know; yours is the only one I ever heard about. I have studied the concept and it always makes me cringe, thinking of what it would take to make that work!
Now I will make you a single shot.....
More for the OP; if you want to shoot 400 grain bullets, you have to have a 40 cal, and the easiest way to get it is the 400 Whelen; same ballistics as the 404, or the 450-400, but brass is damn near free.
9.3s are best for the 286 grainer.

quote:

Does one have an edge over the other?

Forgive me for my bad eyesight, but I did not see where you stated the planned application for a new rifle.
Pachyderms or prairie dogs?
Without knowing that how can one properly answer your original question?

DPCD may have inside information as he did provide some good information.

You are spot on, but the only clue I had was that he is trying to replace a 416 RM.
To get anywhere close, he has to have a .40 cal, and since I hate the .404 (never should have existed; Mauser made Jeffery take it; what they really wanted was a bolt action 450-400; instead they got the Metric 10.75 bastard bore size because Mauser was already making them) I suggested a far easier route to get the same ballistics as a 404.
Just guessing as usual.

Yeah just looking for a .416 replacement. The 9.3x62 sounds interesting. I didn't realize the x74 is a rarity in a bolt gun. I guess that choice could be a Ruger #1 for me. I don't really like double rifles. No real reason besides they aren't that affordable. I'll do some searching around AR to learn more about the .400 Whelen. That sounds interesting as well


CrShelton -- I'll probably never make it to Africa. I hunt hogs each week here in Texas and would love to live in a state where I can elk hunt in the winter and fish for Crappie year round. North America offers a lot for me to enjoy. I just get the itch for a good horsepower affordable big bore

dpcd,
You may be spot on.
My frame of reference is with a friend of mine who bought a .416 Rem Mag , took it to Africa and killed an elephant. Within 6 months of his return, he sold it and went back to hunting deer and quail with the same guns as before the .416.
Another friend in Australia bought a SWEET scoped Winchester 1895 in .405 from a person that had configured the rifle for one African hunt and then sold it upon return to Florida.
My friend has since killed a great many big critters with that rifle down under,in the US and Africa; the rifle finally has found a home.

BTW, that .405 is a 40 caliber as you recommend and shoots .410 and .411 ammo.

Bugelmin,,,,
Good on you for blasting those hog. Me too, with every center fire rifle that I have.

From .223 to .458 (45-70 and 45-90).

It will soon be cool enough to head back to the Boars Nest at Kenefic OK and run them with dogs. My last one was shot with .45-70 at approx 3 yards! Also, elk are exotics here in Texas and that makes for year round hunting at much less consumption of time and money.

Very nice CR! I am the same way. I love testing new and different calibers/guns/ammo on them. They are a great test media. I even have one hog I got with the .458 win mag on my Youtube Channel.

Near Bakersfield, Tx we have a fairly large elk herd and the neighboring ranches and ours limit ourselves to 1 bull per property per year. Free range low fence..it is awesome to see them bugling alongside the Aoudad and Mule Deer with Cactus and West Texas canyons nearby. Last years bull was the largest taken off the property in a long time at around 360". Usually they are 300-330". Still impressive.

.405 would be classic in an 1895

In spite of the negative opinions expressed here, the .404 Jeffery has been used widely and with great satisfaction in Africa for over 100 years. It would be hard to find a PH who would denigrate the cartridge, I think.

The 9.3x74R is a very long, rimmed round for single shots and double rifles; Forget about a bolt action in it.
As for the 404; sure, it was successful and very capable; I never said it was a bad round; I am talking about it from a technical standpoint; it could have been (what Jeffery wanted; a rimless 450-400), and should have been, a .410 bore. Not a 423.
No one reloaded back then so odd (metric) bullets were not an issue. They are now. Just my opinion.
Which is why I make 404s, with .410 barrels.

The 9.3x74R and the 9.3x62 are popular in Europe in break and bolt actions respectively and used on large game, notably large wild boar, bears and moose. The 9.3x62 was also popular in Africa, especially in the former German parts as it was available in cheap Mauser built rifle. It's not quite a 375 H&H, but it is the min legal calibre for dangerous game. The fact that it was much more affordable than magnum Mauser actioned 375H&H made it quite widely used on both dangerous game (where it is probably marginal, but the right side of marginal) and on large plains game.

A 9.3x62 is easily made - take any 30-06 or 270 length bolt action rifle and swap the barrel. I have shot them a few times and recoil is not really much stiffer than the 30-06 and certainly less than the 375 H&H.

The 9.3x74R has very similar ballistics, but is found in double, drilling and combination guns. And there are planty of affordable European built over and under doubles built in 9.3x74R and their main use is driven boar shooting.

quote:

405 would be classic in an 1895

Indeed it is:- 400 grain Woodie at 2100:


Also nice in a double rifle:- 300 grain TSX at 2250


.405 is enough for most land critters.
It does well for the handloader also, with bullet weights from 210, 300 on up to 400 grains.

Nice buffalo.
The 9.3x62 can be put on most any action; standard Mausers in 8 or 7.65mm work fine, (tweak the rails a bit with a ball end mill) and as stated, any 30-06.
The Swedes (Husqvarna) put them on the 96 Swedish Mauser. I saw one last week in 30-06; something we would not do now but they know best.

quote:

Nice buffalo.

Thank you. My kind of hunting.
Guide and trackers sneaked up from behind in sandy soil and put me within 20 yards and it was exciting. Even I can hit a critter that big when that close!
Nothing against long range shooting, but then you have a long walk to collect the game.

Bugelmintoday,
I looked up Bakersfield, Texas and you really are way out in West Texas!
I have hunted the Devils River area, the Pecos River area, and one other place way out from Alpine (so long ago ). Shot a mule deer at the last place and a Javelina on the Pecos.
Lots of big ranches and few folks out there.

I have read about the elk herds in that country and guess the only reason they can survive is the remoteness and large ranches protect them from city hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You are spot on, but the only clue I had was that he is trying to replace a 416 RM.
To get anywhere close, he has to have a .40 cal, and since I hate the .404 (never should have existed; Mauser made Jeffery take it; what they really wanted was a bolt action 450-400; instead they got the Metric 10.75 bastard bore size because Mauser was already making them) I suggested a far easier route to get the same ballistics as a 404.
Just guessing as usual.

Jeffery wanted a caliber larger than .410" so as to do 2400 fps with 400-grainer at modest pressure from the handy 24" barrel, for his solid/FMJ bullet loads.
They were stuck with the Cordites of the time,
would have blown a gasket with .410/400-grainer.
2200 fps was recommended maximum for 400-gr softs and "old pattern Cordite."
2400 fps with 400-gr FMJ and the new "Flat Strip High Velocity Cordite."
That was advertised in the 1912-13 catalog of W. J. Jeffery & Co. LTD.

To say that Jeffery was stuck with the .423-caliber by Mauser because they were already making it is twaddle.
That German barrel caliber offered just what was needed by Jeffery.
The Germans copied their 10.75x73mm Mauser after the pioneer .404 Jeffery of 1905.

And Rigby was not later stuck with the oddball .416-caliber because the Germans were not making it?

When comparing the 404 Jefferys to a 9.3x74 or even a 450-400, one should state based on the orginal ballistics of the early 1900s..

Today a good Mauser with IMR, H or ww2 4831 with 95 grs. with get you 2500 to 2600 depending on the gun and barrel length..My go to load for many years in all my 404s was 93 grs for 2400 plus..My 450-400 maxed out at 2132 FPS...If I wanted a bolt action 450-400 then I would and did have a 10.75x68 that shot a 400 gr. 423 bullet at 2125 FPS..The only thing wrong with the wonderful 10.75x68 was the lousy 250 gr. bullets of its day..Today if you have a 10.75x68 you can shoot the 400 gr. 323 bulletrs in it at 2125 FPS and its a dandy bolt action 450-400 for all practical purposes.

In as much as there are way more .323 bullets available and fewer .410 and .411 bullets by comparison I can't see a thing wrong with .423, and besides most doubles in 450-400 will shoot .411, or 412, or 410, if you mic them and its anybodys guess, and I think many folks just shoot all three in the same gun and apparently get aways with it, I always micked my double bores, both barrels, then picked a bullet.

CRS,
I think your friend from Florida used to post here and had that 405 built to hunt Buffalo in Tanzania, booked the hunt with me to hunt with Pierre van Tonder. He got a solid 2000 FPS with that mod. 95 Win...I loved that gun but it sure would rattle ones teeth..Am I on track or is this a coincedence..

Never messed with the 404. I have been shooting the heck out of a Merkel 9.3x74R double. Killed everything from turkey to eland with it and absolutely love it. The cartridge looks pretty cool and hits with authority on everything I have shot with it. I liked it so much I picked up a Ruger #1 in the 9.3x74R also. It shoots everything good.

I picked up one of the latest Ruger 9.3x62 bolt guns. I have not used it enough to pronounce judgement but so far so good. I have no doubts in the cartridge.

Safe shooting.......

Curious, what did you not like about the 416 RM? And what do you like better about the 404 J? Just wandering how you see the different applications.

quote:

Originally posted by TrademarkTexan:
Curious, what did you not like about the 416 RM? And what do you like better about the 404 J? Just wandering how you see the different applications.

Just looking for something different really. MY Sako was very nice but it was right handed...and the next will be LH bolt or a Ruger #1. This .416 did recoil more than my 458 win mag or 458 Lott that I had previously...but that may have been due to stock design

the 404 and 416s are hands down more powerful than the 9.3x74 which cannot normally be used in a bolt action, rimmed rounds have been done in bolt guns but its very expensive and not recommended as a rule...Ruger makes a #1S in 9.3x74, its a nice option, but I don't cherish a single shot for DG..

I have witnessed a number of Cape Buffalo shot with the 9.3x74 Merkel double rifles, and they worked in every case. Many of my clients used them and gave rave results!!..Same for the 9.3x62 Mauser. and Ive used the 9.3x62 on buffalo and large PG as well as elk with excellent results, but prefer the .338 for NA game..

The 404 Jefferys was my main rifle in Africa I suppose, used it more than others with the .416 Rem and 375 H&H a close second.All good rounds.

Of note is I never bothered with old world loadings and balisitics with my good Mausers in 404 J. I loaded 93 grs of one of the 4831s, for 2400 FPS give or take 50 fps...Could only improve the 404 with the 450 gr Woodleigh, that's a hammer load..Also in the .416 Rem, another favorite of mine..