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I am wondering why Rigby used a .416 cal bullet for his 416 Rigby cartridge instead of a .411 or .408 which were already on the market for the rimmed 450/400's. I can't believe that if everything else is equal that a .416 will kill game better than a .411 will. Your thoughts? Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | ||
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That you and I both need to get a life--you for thinking about that and me for reading and responding. Besides if it werent for the rigby I wouldnt have a 416 B&M. Semi seriously.. the English gunmakers liked propriatory cartridges. They tried to be differnt. it wasnt mass market back then. SSR | |||
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1- You would have a 411 or 408 B&M. 2- We HAVE lives! They are just gun oriented is all! 3- Your real answer makes alot of sense.  Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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They made a .416 so that truly intelligent folks would bypass it and get a .404 Jeffery.  JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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And Mr. J named his .423" diam. bullet a 404 why???   Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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"404" was a marketing gimmick: It signified a "40-plus-caliber rifle with 4 shots available" from a standard Mauser: 40+4 = 404. 3 down in the box, one in the chamber, a 4-shooter. Even more in the true Mauser Magnum action. That's a fact, no mere conjecture.  It was also the first bolt action DGR to ever do the above, the cartridge was conceived in 1905. All the rest that followed were wannabees, just trying to keep up with the Jefferys. BTW, my CZ 550 Magnum is a 6-shooter in 404 Jeffery, 5 down + 1 in chamber. Sort of like a "406." | |||
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Love to see a profile pic of your 6 shoot 404. Thanks for the history lesson too. Why did he go with NE velocity instead of a faster one? Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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Jack, It looks just like every other CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic. Get a life! | |||
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OK Judge, Thats to far, I demand satifaction. I suggest soda siphons under the oaks at 6:30 pm--loser stands the tab 416 forever--  SSR | |||
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Truly intelligent folks can tell the difference between a .416" bullet weighing 400 grains passing the muzzle at 2,370 fps and the lesser killing power of a .423" bullet of the same weight flying at a muzzle velocity that is 245 fps slower. As to why .416"? Just sounds right, old man, and Bob's your uncle. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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OMG, I just learned something new today! She was only the Fish Mongers daughter. But she lay on the slab and said 'fillet' | |||
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The 404 Jeffery started the bolt action DGR in 1905. Before that there was nothing. Of course they would start off with traditional Nitro Express ballistics, about 2125 fps with a 400-grain bullet. And that from a "short" 24" barrel! And on a standard Mauser action! Soon factory loads began creepinging upward in velocity with better powders, etc. RWS loads of the 1950s were 2350 fps with a 400-grain 404 Jeffery bullet. Maybe the antique 404 Jeffery rifles of pre-WWII steel standard Mauser should stick to 2200 fps or slower with 400-grainers, but modern steel barreled actions, and especially magnum actions, capable of the .416 Rigby, have no problem with 2400 fps using 400-grainers in the 404 Jeffery. M70 Winchesters in 404 Jeffery are just loafing if they are not delivering 2400 fps with 400-grainers. 2500 fps with 380-grainers. 2700 fps with 340-grainers. Just right. | |||
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According to Kynoch's web site the Jeffery came along in "around 1910" and the Rigby in 1911. Seems obvious that Rigby was trying to compete and to do one better than Jeffery, as Jeffery was trying to replicate their 450/400. One can goose both the Jeffery and Rigby above their original velocities but are they still the 404 Jeffery and the 416 Rigby? Seems to me that one should call them something else if one is not satisfied with the original formula. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I agree with Jack needing a life.... And myself, for replying to this! I have been wondering about the same myself, and I have non-scientifically come to the same conclusion as Cross L. It makes sense also in the view that the bullet diameter for the .450/.400 varied between .408 and .411. Not a mass-market and consequently little standardization. Just look how many different calibers i.e. bullet diameters were introduced after the ban of the .450. Another possible yet perhaps less plausible explanation is that Rigby foresaw the .416 craze of the (19)90's, thus anticipating the market trend and ensuring the continued popularity and success of his chambering. Still - the more interesting question to me is why the heck the .400 Jeffery (i.e. .450/.400 NE) and the .404 Jeffery do NOT utilize the same bullet dia! Anyone able to share some light on this will get a bisquit. My guess is a development of Boddington's ponderings. It is (or: "Is it") possible that the .404 Jeff was in fact a German development that Jeffery adopted, rather than one of their own. - Lars/Finlad PS. I need no life. Just sitting at the office while 80% of my colleagues are on holis and consequently little to do... A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot | |||
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If a man BELIEVES that he has a life THEN HE HAS ONE! PERCEPTION IS REALITY! I love my life! God, family, friends, guns/hunting, guitars, cars. Anyone wanting to join in is IN!  Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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The 404 name is purely conjecture and one that I came up with after researching the origens of the 404 with Casey Lewis. We were going to publish our research but somehow never got to it. The caliber .423 ( 10.75) is old BP European, the case is British, the load on original form is British. The caliber originally was not 423 but 422 as per the Birmingham proof house records Why do I claim that it's not German: Propellant used: Stick nitro ! The Germans went BP then Flake, no intermediate in the form of Stick Nitro as the English did, and to boot the Germans went flake with the 7x57 when the Brits were still smoking the world up with BP. From inception ? 1904 introduced 1905 the 404 was Stick Nitro unitll about 1926 when the Germans load for it in Flake. The second pointer is bullet weight. Unlike modern wildcatters the Germans did not simply take a existing case, tweak and load, they, true to their reputation for precision actually worked out loads and optimal bullet weight mathematically and verified loads in ballistics labs. They were very proud of these facilities and rightly so. So you see the odd bullet mass choices in their original cartridges. The 10,75 x 68 is an example, it's optimal bullet weight for charge weight was mathematically deduced and verified in a lab. The case: it's Jeffery 450-400 and the volume is to accomodate Nitro not Flake. If it were German and designed for the Mauser action size of the time the case would have ended up the same size as the 10,75 x 68. The Germans did not extend action use beyond the dimensions of cartridges designated per action size. If and when they needed to use a large case cartridge they designed a special action to match or else they altered the case making it fatter and rebating the rim So to get to the 404, if it were German it would have been loaded with flake and we would likely have seen a different optimal bullet weight and case size for it. The forerunner of this cartridge is a 450 -400 Jeffery with the rim turned down and an extractor groove cut. The caliber of these specimens = .409 Cartridges exist for this but I know of no rifle in existance today chambered in this format. It also has the large cap Berdan Primer of the original 450-400 Jeffery. The first commercial 404 was by Eley. There are many fallacies about the 404 and one is that it came in many variations, this is not true, the cartridge itself retained it's basic dimension and caliber .422 and then later .423 from start to current, this based on the various drawings as submitted to the Birmingham Proof House over the years. As too bore size now there are different sizes out there, the German derived barrels were all standard. The British Vickers barrels however were smaller diameter and the reason possibly two fold. The difference in the Way the Germans measured bore ( they did not designate bore as land to land, they went groove to groove ) Hence their propencity for larger bullets for caliber . Secondly then the fact that the Brits were shooting Nitro and needed to opitimize on pressure. | |||
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Alf, It would seem the dead giveaway is that there are no 404 German cartridges. Is that not correct? No 10.66 German cartridges. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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That's very good information Alf. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Why .416....? It sits exactly halfway between the .375 & .458 bullet diameters. Best, Dave | |||
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Following on from Alf's very thoughtfull reply I add the following. With 1905 release date for the 404, there would have to have been developwment in 1904, so again a 40 cal of '04 was a natural progression on the recently released 30-03 and a naturale thought, seing as the 303 had been in sucessful uses since 1888 even if it had been BP for many of those years, it had prooved itself so for the British as 404 designation for a 40 cal cartridge is an astute move.  Von Gruff. | |||
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Why not a .303 British, a .404 Jeffery and a .505 Gibbs?  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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And .411 is not close enough? I think the idea that gun makers wanted to be individualistic is the dominant reason; after digesting all that's been posted here. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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They chose .416" because a) .415" was too small b) .417" was too big. c) .416" was just right. | |||
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Will, The German designation is the 10.75x73 Mauser. I have fired some of that in my 404 Jeffery, and it did headspace well enough to discharge. | |||
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Alf, I am so happy to hear that you and Casey Lewis have at least considered a monograph like the one from RSA on the 500 Jeffery.  OK so it is conjecture: 40-plus caliber 4 shooter. 400 of '04 400-grain bullets x 4 It is all of the above, lost in the numerologic past. I have long pondered it. Hence my propensity to call a .395 Tatanka: 40-07 And the 49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010: 49-10 Like a 30-06. We need a thread for 404 Jeffery History, serious history. I have a bit more legible scan of that old Jeffery catalog reproduction to start it off with, ala Von Gruff, and hope serious historians will add to it. | |||
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Does it look like mine here? This is a CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 416 Rigby customized by Match Grade Arms. http://i1093.photobucket.com/a...ogpilot/IMG_1088.jpg | |||
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Forgive me guys, I'm still new here and haven't quite figured out this photobucket thing. How to you get the picture to display instead of just posting the link? | |||
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 Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Thanks for the help Jason. | |||
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I think that is exactly it. Plus using a .411 bullet from a .450/.400 and pushing it to 2350fps (assuming that is real) could have caused bullet failures, so better to start afresh with a thicker jacket in a new size... | |||
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