Anyone else have this problem? I recently bought a Win M-70 "Safari Express" in .375 H&H, and I've yet to scope it. But I've been trying to shoot it with open sights to break in the barrel, and honestly, I dread it. It whacks my cheekbone hard with every shot. I keep expecting to get a big black bruise on my face, it's so brutal.

The recoil's not too bad (even with my 300 gr. 2620 fps hand loads), but the face smacking is really unacceptable. Does any one else have this problem? How do you deal with it? Is this stock designed for a scope?

Pretty bad when you want to shoot your Lott to give yourself a break!

Pertinax

Pertinax,

I have a .375H&H and a .470 Capstick and neither punishes my cheekbone.

It sounds like you may need to take a rasp to that comb.

George

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"Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!"

Yeah, the new straight comb hammers my cheek without a scope. Need to restock, with a plastic version with more drop, like I did.

Thanks for the warning.

I've been shooting mine with a Leupold w/Talley QD bases, and will be testing it out Monday without the scope.

I noticed on the first day that I had to squeeze my cheekbone into the comb in order to see through the iron sights.

Rick.

George,

A woodworker I am not! Perhaps I can find someone else willing to modify the stock, or...

Will, you suggest a plastic stock with more drop. Any recommendations? Price, lead time, etc.? (And for the kicker; it's a left-handed gun...)

Pertinax, of the bruised cheek

Rick,

Get ready all right. I'm new to large rifles, and I've spent the last couple of months wondering how in the world people can say things like "...everyone can learn to shoot the .375 well...". Well, it's finally become clear to me that it's the stock smashing my face that's the problem, not the recoil itself. I've not shot many hard-recoiling guns, so I'm just learning about the differences between stock designs. This design must be bad; I'm quite serious when I say that my 10 lb. Lott firing full-house loads is less painful to shoot. 'Course, it has a scope.

I hate to get rid of the stock though; it's quite pretty. I suppose after I scope it that the iron sights are just for emergencies, and in such cases a bruise won't matter much.

BTW, my .375 shoots tiny 50 yard groups (I can't see Winchester's crummy sights well enough to try at 100 yds). Groups of only a few rounds though; three shots and I have a splitting headache.

Pertinax

Okay, that explains it. I have the older-style stock with the slight Monte Carlo hump, like this one on my .470:

You need to get yourself one of those. Check the auction sites; occasionally one pops up.

Or, offer to trade your straight-comb stock for one of the older stocks.

George

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"Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!"

I noticed it also. But it isn't just Winchester, most new gun stocks are designed for scope use and are a bear to shoot using the open sights.

Unless you don't have cheekbones.

Joe

Cast off and drop at the heel and comb plus proper butt pitch are required for shooting a heavy with the irons. Look at the 458 Lott photos on my site below for an idea. The photos show the stock prior to checkering and final finishing, I have some recent photos to update.

If you read the post "This Lott is a Real Pussycat" a few days ago by Pete Millan, same rifle, it is now in Africa. I just checked the African Room, post is still there, on the 2nd page.

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Currently in Exile on the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.

Email Address is rifles@earthlink.net

Web site http://home.earthlink.net/~rifles/

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 05-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 05-23-2002).]

the world today is under the thumb of the great Jack O'Connor and the days of Al Biesen...thick high combs for scopes and you cannot shoot hard kicking rifles with them, no compromise....and they kick stright back and no upward recoil to amount to anything....

In your case it is not big deal to shave the comb and refinish the wood to match...Needs drop at the heel, and comb...actually needs about 5/16 cast off but your out of luck there.....

All my guns are set up for irons and with a scope I simply raise my head 1/4 of an inch and it has never bothered my shooting or shooting ability....It is the best if your going to shoot both irons and scope...I love the cast off and I get my recoil seperated, part up and part back and all away from the face. I was raised on the old Win. M-70 low comb rifles and they all had scopes on them in later years, never knew better, never cared and still don't....they suit me fine.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

pertinax,
You got the newer "negative drop" stock that has just come out on the Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express in the last two years. The heel is actually a bit higher than the nose of the comb, it slopes upward, no drop, actually a rise from nose to heel of the comb: negative drop.

The butt is bigger and the stock overall a bit bulkier than the older M70 stock of the M70 Classics. It is great for a scope, and will ease recoil there.

I have rifles with the older stock. I also have a 416 Rem. M70 with the new negative drop stock. I can still make it work with irons or scope on either stock, without getting beat up. Part of it is getting a solid full contact grip and not letting the stock get a run at your face. One must go with the flow.

Of course a new synthetic stock will save the old one and give you an alternate setup.

Thanks, everyone for the advice. I must confess that I don't know what the various stock terms mean (comb, heel, drop, etc.), so I've got some research to do. Until I started shooting the big stuff, I never even considered stock configurations, as it never mattered.

Based on what you guys are saying though, it does sound like the stock can be modified, but I think I'll wait until I scope it to see how it is then. If I still want to change something then, I'll probably be back with more questions. Thanks again.

Pertinax

The truth is, it's impossible for stock architecture to work properly with standard open sights, and also properly with a scope. Wishful thinking is one thing, but a defiance of physics is something else again. One stock will not serve both purposes exactly right, and therein comes the rub, and history will underscore that reality.

For example, when scopes really started to catch on after WWII, Winchester began to offer (1951) a Monte Carlo-style stock for the Model 70. Now if the original low-comb ("regular" version, as Winchester termed it) was up to the task, the Monte Carlo version would have never been introduced.

If you want more proof, at about the same time, genius custom stockmakers like Monte Kennedy, Al Biesen, and Dale Goens introduced modern, "negative drop", "American Classic" style stocks which were created first and foremost for proper scope use. If the client wanted to use open sights only, then the stock was modified.

Modern master stockmakers like Dave Miller and D'Arcy Echols will tell you the same thing: A single stock cannot serve two sighting systems and perform both tasks properly.

There is a way to beat the problem, though. You can have a higher set of open sights installed that will work properly with a stock designed for use with a scope. I have a set of EAW open sights on my Echols-built .375 H&H that is high enough to clear the detachable scope bases and high enough to pick up instantly as soon as the face hits the stock when the rifle is mounted. The stock was designed for use with a scope.......

AD

AD,
Good point. I have seen some nice looking stopping rifles with a straight stock and truly massive and high express sights. That is a nice setup for irons or scope.

On my new LH M70 Winch I replaced the front sight with a Lyman apature sight on the tube that holds the interchangable inserts I silver soldered a sloped 3/16" x 3/16" ramp this is now the new front sight.

The rifle has Weaver style scope bases on it and the scope has Leupold QWR rings.

For the rear sight I have a peep sight that mounts to the rear base ring high enought to match the front sight .

Works and looks good.

Regards martin

You need to simply get yourself an older style wooden stock from Winchester, if that is possible or go and purchase one from someone that makes stocks weather your fancy be wood or plastic. Winchester had the best wooden stock design of all the gun companies.

I have a couple of older Winchester's with wooden stocks that they are a pleasure to shoot off handed or sitting down. Now from the bench, any caliber like a .375 is not going to be peaches and cream on your face or shoulder.

Pertinax, I think that Dice2 has the answer. I picked up a 1968 era M70 Magnum stock (still new in the wrap) off of e-bay for $56.00 plus shipping a few months back. I like them over the newer style because of the "Weatherby" style design they used - for some reason they do not allow the recoil to "hit me" like the newer straight styles do (especially when using a scope). I also own a M70 African, made in 1978, that I shoot comfortably (well as comfortably as possible when shooting a .458 Win Mag) - my sight on that one is a Lyman 57 receiver mounted peep. If you stick the post-64 magnum stocks they should fit your action. You do need to check and see if your rifle has a barrel mounted recoil block (some post-64 M70's have the block, some don't). Odessa

Great Rifle..
You can get the comb lowered by any decent gunsmith, for a very small amount. If you have any spare flesh on your body, have about 3/8 cast off carved into it, as I bet you can't find a stock bender that will get it back to you in a reasonable time.
Another issue with the winchester safari express (I've restocked mine, it's fun now) is that's it's too light. Put 4oz of leadshot and acraglas in the forearm, and it'll tame right out. The dadgum stock is designed for a scope, and if you can slow the flip down, just a tad, you can work right through it. I'm not talking about pounds.. just about couple oz, right where the checkering is on the forearm.

You can try richards' microfit, if you want to spend a couple days doing woodworking (doesn't sound like you are much into that part) if you want to restock. www.rifle-stocks.com I WISH i got a kickback from them.
i would just try the lead shot thing. Heck, you can "test" that (not pretty, but you can see if it works) by putting some golf club weights on the forearm and taping them down. Give it a whirl

good hunting
jeffe

Thanks for the good advice, all. I'm going to try to track down an older left-handed stock. If that fails, I'll try the micro-fit stocks. They are cheap enough-- and thanks a lot for the pointer to them. I had not heard of them before. Some of their laminate patterns are pretty enough that I might break down and actually finish one myself.

Though after I scope this thing, perhaps it will all be less of an issue. However, to do an apples-to-apples comparison, the "new" stock on my .375 looks to my untrained eye to be almost identical to the "old style" stock on my .458 Lott. There's very little obvious difference. But the Lott, to me, actually hurts less to fire sighting with the irons. Clearly that older stock design works better for me. (Anybody care to spell out the specs on that stock? I doubt I've got an old Winchester catalog laying around, and I'd like them as a reference.)

Thanks again.

Pertinax

You could also order a McMillan low comb stock for pre-64 model 70 rifles but inletted for you classic barrelled action. It will work. When we make one for a customer we start with it as a nucleus and add fiberglass to rhe butstock a little at a time until the gun fits. Takes a little time but when its finished it will fit for Iron and will suffice for scopes. You just have to decide which sighting technique is most important to you. Order the McMillan stock unfinished or pay the finished price and do all of the modifications to the stock includung the comb then return to McMillan to put pad/studs and paint on.
lb404

OK, so I scoped the beast. The stock works great with a scope. In fact, I think my .300 RUM is more annoying to shoot. Not much muzzle rise, and it doesn't whack my cheekbone. A joy to shoot, and in my hurried sight-in this morning, I got a 2" group with no effort at all. It will undoubtedly do better if properly sandbagged.

You guys were right. This stock is designed for a scope, and works well with one. I think I just get a back-up scope, and leave the stock alone. But I learned a lot from this thread, so thank you one and all.

Now to work on accurate .375 loads...

Pertinax