Until Wipe-Out came along, I was a devoted Barnes CR-10 user. In fact, I still like it and use it. We've all known about the warnings on the bottle and on Sweets about not leaving heavy ammonia based products in your barrel for very long - usually 15 minutes. I personally have left it in there longer than that and know of others who do the same. I have never had a problem, nor have I ever heard of anyone ever having a problem.

Is there anyone here who has first hand experience of ruining a barrel by leaving these products in your barrel too long?
If so, how long was the product in your barrel?

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RC

I use Sweets, and I try to follow the instruction. I have no problems with Sweets, I use it in my double rifle.

I personally do not know of someone who has "ruined" a barrel with a bore solvent. Much more damage is done by not using a bore guide!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

The problem revolves around the ammonia content found in these cleaners. Ammonia is the chemical which softens copper. Unfortunately, ammonia is also hygroscopic - attracts water. Water vapor and a clean barrel equals corrosion. It was long believed (urban myth) that Sweets was eating the barrels. This is not true. In fact you can seal a bore in a bath of Sweets for months without damage. However, leave the same barrel exposed to air for any length of time, and corrosion will quickly set in.

When using high ammonia content cleaners, it is paramount that you remove all traces of the cleaner and then protect the bore after cleaning. After a few dry patches, I always flood the barrel with BreakFree or Kroil and push the standing oil out with a dry patch.

Sweets and CR-10 are safe to use for normal cleaning as long as you follow these directions. Using the proper cleaning equipment is extremely important - coated rods, nylon brushes, bore mops, bronze brushes, bore guides, gun vise, and quality solvents and lubricants. It is much easier to damage your bore by improper cleaning than it is by shooting bullets through your bore.

One other word of advice - Don�t mix solvents. If you are going to use two different solvents, make sure you remove the first before moving on to the second. Shooters Choice and CR-10 chemically react with each other. However, mixing Shooters Choice with Kroil is not a problem. (All of these solvents are oil based.)

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 05-10-2002).]

First off, I am a chemist and know a thing or two about the effects of corrosion. I clean the barrel of my .50BMG with a mix of 10% Conc. Ammonium hydroxide( 40% ammonia w/w) and liquid Ivory scoap. Nothing else can remove the copper fouling following a match in which about 50 bore riders are fired. The ammonia complexes the copper forming a copper/ammonium ion chelate thus solubilizing it. The mix is allowed to stay in the barrel for only a few minutes, then swabbed out. It is a very bright blue. This is done repeatedly till tghe patches come out clean. I then swab with acetone to remove the water followed by a coat of Butches bore shine. These is NO CORROSION evident on Bore Scope inspection following this procedure. I would not leave this brew in the barrel for too long, but 4140 stainless steel is quite resistant to the effects of ammonia for reasonable periods of time. Avoid all solutions containing chlorides in any form with stainless steels or be prepared for effects that will look like the craters on the moon-Rob

RGB:

I think the best part of your procedure is the followup with acetone. Never gave that a thought but at least it would get rid of all the cleaner and water.

Will

Robgunbuilder,

This raises a concern. 4140 steel is NOT stainless steel. 4140 is composed of:

0.42% carbon
0.90% Manganese
0.15-0.35% Silicon
0.035% Phosphorous
0.04% sulfur
1.00% Chromium
0.20% Molybdenum
the balance is Iron.

Stainless steels exist in various alloys (304, 316, 440, etc..) but there is a significant difference in their makeup.

Most stainless steels have at least 10% Chromium, usually closer to 20%. They usually contain a significant amount of Nickel (5-15% is typical). They also tend to have less Carbon, etc. As you can see, 4140 and stainless are very different chemically.

As a chemist, would this make a difference? According to common lore, stainless steel won't rust. But as a machinist, I know that it can rust and/or corrode. Of course, different alloys behave differently, but corrosion, etc, can take place. Stainless is particularly susceptible to Chloride Stress corrosion.

shiflan

With only a peripheral knowledge (!), I think it is common knowledge that one has to
stay away from chlorides with S.S.

Ammonia does not harm steel, as such, but as someone said it absorbs water, so don't let ammonia compounds sit for too long in the bore.

Stifan - You are absolutely correct and I am quite aware that 4140 isn't a stainless steel. I was typing faster than I was thinking and left out the "and"! What I should have said is that you can use this 10% v/v conc. ammonia solution on both 4140 and stainless steel barrels. I have observed no corrosion effects from it on either form of steel and it's ability to remove copper fouling is better than anything else I have ever tried. Chemically, ammonia NH3 or ammonium hydroxide NH4OH are not oxidizing agents and will not cause "rusting" or oxidation of the steel surfaces.Instead they form complexes with copper and thus solubilize it. Water, containing oxygen, is an oxidizing solution and will cause extensive rust as will hyroscopic salts of ammonia such as ammonium phosphate/sulfate used in many commercial bore cleaners. I strongly suggest this brew be followed with an acetone wash to remove the residual water followed by Butch's bore shine and/or oil. I think I should sell this stuff as Rob's bore shine.-Rob

[This message has been edited by Robgunbuilder (edited 05-13-2002).]

Robgunbuilder,

Is that solution 10% ammonia hydroxide and 90% soap or what?

Could standard household ammonia be substituted?

rcasto,

I have left Sweet's in the barrel over night in several barrels. In the morning, some of them had rusted, and some have not?!

This is all in an underground room which has an air conditioner that regulated the temprature.

These are crome molly, not stainless.

As an experiment, I cut open the chamber end of an old Sako factory barrel - blued, and also a piece of a stainless barrel I took off another one.

I cleaned them, then put Sweet's in both and left it for several days.

I could not detect any visible signs of change in either.

So you guess is as good as mine.

These cleaners seem to affect some barrels more than others.

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

No you can't use household ammonia-It's not strong enough. To make this solution you add 1 part of conc. ammonium hydroxide to 9 parts of Ivory soap by volume not weight. In the exteme case of really heavy copper fouling such as in your typical .17 rem etc. I have actually gone the other way- i.e. adding 9 parts Conc. hydroxide to 1 part liquid Ivory soap by volume. You must be very very carefull with this solution as it can cause severe burns on contact with the skin,god help you if you get any in your eyes! However, it will remove copper nearly instantly. I don't use this except in extreme circumstances. Again follow through with acetone and a water removing oil.
In a match, I can clean a bore fast enough to maintain accuracy between strings. Just pity the poor guys alongside of me if the wind is blowing in their direction. It's also a strategic part of my approach to psyching out the competition-Rob

Robgunbuilder,

Would strong (91%)isopropyl alcohol work as well as acetone for swabbing after cleaning with an ammonia based solution?

No 91% IPA isn't very hydroscopic. Acetone can be purchased at an auto parts dealer. Just keep it off of certain plastics.-Rob

Rob,The Ammonnium hydroxide,40% ammonium and 60% water ?
Where do you get it ,a drugstore?
Also, I use a Aluminum bottle with a plastic spray pump on it for my bore cleaners and so far so good but I alway's wondered if if the cleaners would eat the aluminum or contaminate the cleaners.

Regards Martin

You should be able to buy conc. Ammonium Hyrdoxide from any local chemical supply house. I doubt a drug store would carry it anymore. I get mine from my lab. They may ask you what you intend to use it for to make sure your not using it for an illegal drug lab! They will probably freak out when you tell them!-Rob

Thanks may have to try find one in the city.
Any idea's on the aluminum ??

Martin

The old Bench Resters "Blue Goop" recipe:

1 qt. 40% amonia
1 cup of Hydrogen peroxide
1 copper bullet or copper penny to turn it blue (not really necessary)

Strong stuff and don't let it stay in bore more than 10 minutes I have been told....

I use this on really fouled bores....It works very well indeed...

Clean it dry and oil well....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

And what about FeCl3 solution for removing copper ?

What do you think about putting small silica gel bags into barrel for long storage ?

Hopefully not too dumb a question...

Where the heck do you get nylon bore brushes????

I've checked every gun shop I've ever been in, plus looked at gun shows, and I've never seen a nylon brush. Brass and stainless steel, but never nylon!

Maybe it's just a Canadian thing...

Fischer - You can get nylon brushes at Sinclair International.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/

Jiri- Under no circumstances put anything in a valued Stainless steel barrel that that contains any chloride salt. Most chloride salts are extremely hyroscopic and will react with the Nickel/chromium surface oxides that are present in stainless steels ( actually protecting their surfaces) leading to rapid pitting.
I suspect the rational for the use of ferric chloride to remove copper in a ChromeMoly barrel is based on the use of electrochemical cleaning methods and requires a cathode and anode be produced in the barrel. If left running too long this will also eventually ruin a barrel.It also does not strike me as a good idea, since unless you extensively wash your bore with water afterwards any residual ferric chloride may rapidly lead to corrosion. I believe that some of the electrolytic bore cleaners use ferric salts and work by creating an electrochemical cell which will solubilize the copper and then plate it out on the cathode which is made of Stainless steel.

Ammonium Hyroxide is not a problem as ammonia is a gas and ammonium hyroxide solutions exposed to air will readily loose all of the ammonia leaving no residue in the bore. You need high concentrations as the reaction of ammonia and metals is a relatively slow process. That's why the 9:1( Conc Hyroxide to Soap) mix works better than the 1:9 Mix. Unfortunately, the 9:1 mix is much more dangerous to use. Make sure you wear good EYE PROTECTION when using these solutions! A good swabbing with Acetone removes all traces of the water.

As far as Ray's blue Goop is concerned, I don't fundamentally understand why one would add a copper object to the solution, if the object is to remove copper from the barrel. The ammonia will react with the bullet/penny and lose a great deal of it's strength. The combustion products of Nitrocellulose/Nitroglycerin are primarily gasses, Nitrates, carbonates, carbon and aliphatic organic species that won't be further oxidized, so I also don't understand the value of the hyrogen peroxide. The reason I use Ivory soap is that it will readily solubilize these combustion products.
The Nylon brushes are also available from Brownells . Sorry for the long diatribe, but this is a very interesting topic! -Rob

Robengunbuilder,

The stuff has been used for years by benchresters...The pennys function is to turn the solution blue and activate it or so I have been told and it turns the solution blue, thus the name "Blue Goop" and I said in my post that the penny was probably not necessary..

As to the rest of your post I have no idea, I am not a chemist, I got the recipe from a magazine and all I know is it certainly works and works well indeed, and was the basis for all the modern amonia based cleaners, but it is much stronger solution....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray- The copper bullet/penny will not activate this solution at all, but rather deactivate it. I agree it is not necessary.
I suspect that this formula, which I have heard of before ( but never used), is based on more on lore rather than solid science.As you know, anything that will turn a patch blue makes a Benchrester happy! In fact, the reaction product of ammonia and hyrogen peroxide will be hyroxylamine and I can't imagine why in the world this would do anything to aid bore cleaning! I'm not doubting that this works( only because there is probably some level of ammonium hyroxide left after the penny and peroxide finishes reacting), but I do doubt it will work as well as the 9:1 conc. ammonium hyroxide, Ivory soap mixture. It would be fun to do a well controlled study of the effects of various bore cleaners. Perhaps I should do this as part of my ad campaign for Rob's Bore Shine-Rob

RGB:

I have been using monoethanolamine, MEA,(the partial contents of Wipe-Out) straight and seems to work as well as or better than Wipe-Out. And a lot less messy. The ammonia ion apparently dissolves the copper and the alcohol ion cleans up everything else. Who would have thought?

This is probably not much different than ammonium hydroxide and Ivory soap, winding up with essentially the same thing. And no mixing! (look for Will's Miracle Bore Cleaner on your store shelf soon!)

You just have to be careful with MEA, no breathing vapors, wear latex gloves, keep off of stock finishes, and keep it out of eyes. But this is no different than when using ammonium hydroxide!!

Will