I am in the process of buying my first double rifle. I am very far from a "conventional" double (Searcy, Kreighoff, etc...), but I am able to purchase a 45-70 Pedersoli (hammer gun - damned fine-looking gun too) that I am going to have converted to 450 N.E. No. 2. Just wondering what some of you think about a DGR that has hammers. Does anyone have any experience in this area? If so what do you think? Is it viable? I have talked myself into believing that if practiced right it should be just about, if not as, fast as a double without hammers.

Save your money.

A hammer gun can be a lot of fun. But it is most definitely an inferior choice as a DG gun. Do you want to follow an elephant or buff into thick jesse with the hammers uncocked? Probably not. Will the safari crew want to walk into the jesse with you if you have the hammers cocked? Probably not. But hunting with a hammer gun is a step up from hunting with a Sig S2 Blaser.

Ask your question on the double rifle forum at http://www.nitroexpress.com.
also, consider rechambering to .450 Nitro 3 1/4" rather than No. 2. Leaves more chamber wall.

Go for it. As with any weapon, to be good with it you must learn and practice the right techneque. I have shot hammered shotguns quite a bit, they can be safely and quickly brought into action. The hammers are cocked as you are coming from port arms to your shoulder. Cocking both at the same time with while reaching across both hammers with your thumb. The best way I have found to do it is to place your middle finger behind the trigger guard and reach across the hammers, then cock them. Your middle finger acts as a pivot point and aids in your pulling both hammers together. Also, this is what they had to use, when breechloaders were new. So, it is proven that it can be done, and live to tell the tale.

Hog Killer

PS: I know my experience is with smooth bores, and not double rifles. But smooth or rifled barrels does not change the facts on how to use this style of weapon.

I recall that Jack Lott praised the sidehammer rifles for dangerous game in an article in Gun Digest sometime in the -80. Had some good points as I recall. I´ll look it up.

I have a Pedersoli in 9,3x74R. Had to change the firing pins, as they were made from too soft material. It´s a dependable, sweet handling thing for the price, a bit on the heavy side, but then you can shoot it all day, right and left, right and left

The Pedersoli .45/70s are fairly light aren't they. Perhaps the recoil will be a little difficult?

1: kodiak express rifles, 45/70 are HEAVY for caliber.. 10.5# ..
2: it's about an 800$ conversion to take to 450#2
3: well worth the effort

on a personal preference, I don't prefer hammer guns.. but if i walked across a ped for 1500-1800 it would be converted and restocked in a month.

If you can afford it, get it... shoot it in 45/70 for awhile.. then modify to 450 #2

jeffe

I hope to have my Kodiak rechambered to 450ne#2 this winter. I have the dies and some brass. The only thing holding me up is the fact it shoots so damm good the way it is!! With 405gr trap door loads you can shoot it all day and it hits where you aim out to 100yrds.
Dean
Jeffe where would you get one rechambered?

Nitrox, that's a great picture.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Go for it. As with any weapon, to be good with it you must learn and practice the right techneque. I have shot hammered shotguns quite a bit, they can be safely and quickly brought into action. The hammers are cocked as you are coming from port arms to your shoulder. Cocking both at the same time with while reaching across both hammers with your thumb. The best way I have found to do it is to place your middle finger behind the trigger guard and reach across the hammers, then cock them. Your middle finger acts as a pivot point and aids in your pulling both hammers together. Also, this is what they had to use, when breechloaders were new. So, it is proven that it can be done, and live to tell the tale.

Hog Killer

PS: I know my experience is with smooth bores, and not double rifles. But smooth or rifled barrels does not change the facts on how to use this style of weapon.

The fun comes when uncocking...especially when you put your thumb on one hammer to lower it and inadvertantly pull the wrong trigger...

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The fun comes when uncocking...especially when you put your thumb on one hammer to lower it and inadvertantly pull the wrong trigger...

Well, you just have to be brighter that a NIGHT LIGHT.

Hog Killer

Or buy guns that don't test your wattage, LOL.

remind me to tell ya'll why i dont' like hammer guns...

and i still have all 11 of my toes!!
jeffe

quote:

Will the safari crew want to walk into the jesse with you if you have the hammers cocked?

With those new fangled "hammerless" (read: internal) you are still walking around with the hammers cocked. I've got 4 hammer doubles and admit they are a bit slower and don't all have stalking safeties, etc, but think they aren't exactly useless if you practice. Having to cock the hammers is a small price to pay for style

Bob

Just for any of the dimmer bulbs who might not have a working rheostat; open the action before you lower the hammers.

I think the bigger problem is slipping when you try to cock the hammers in a hurry. Still, I would use a hammer sxs DG rifle, in reasonably open country.

The Pedersoli I would leave a 45/70 and have fun shooting the hell out of it on targets, deer, hogs...But if you do rechamber, you will have to have the gun reregulated since you'll be pushing up velocity and bullet weight too. Worst case cost for rechamber, reregulate and reblue is about $1800. Better to pass on the Pedersoli and save for the DG double in this lower dollar arena you talking about.

Also, seconding another poster's comment, pass on 450NE No2, stick with 450NE 3 1/4".

FWIW,

JPK

Please contact PWN375 of this forum. He had his Pederoli converted to 450#2. He as very pleased with the conversion. He described the recoil as "Brisk".

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Please contact PWN375 of this forum. He had his Pederoli converted to 450#2. He as very pleased with the conversion. He described the recoil as "Brisk".

I think Perry's brother is the original poster.

On the 450 No 2 versus 450 3-1/4, I think it is a decision between the lower pressure round and the one that requires the removal of less metal.

Charles Helm,

Yes you are correct; and keep in mind that the shoulder of the 450NE No.2 is far forward, perhaps into where the barrels taper, and the pressure difference no so great.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Charles Helm,

Yes you are correct; and keep in mind that the shoulder of the 450NE No.2 is far forward, perhaps into where the barrels taper, and the pressure difference no so great.

JPK

I would not argue that the pressure difference is great. However, the original poster's brother has done the conversion to 450 No 2 on a previous Pedersoli, which I believe is why he is asking about that chambering. In the previous conversion the rifle did not have to be re-regulated but a different front sight was required.

BWN300MAG, if the rifle you are thinking of buying is the one your brother has, then I say go for it! That is a cherry little rifle, and don't worry about the strength of that rifle with the 450#2, it will be fine! The Peds are heavy for caliber, as you well know. That will only help with the substancual recoil of the 450#2. I have one now that was chambered for 458RCBS, and it takes some fairly hot loads, of IMR 4064 behind 480 gr solids. I had another chambered for the same cartridge, and I can vouch for it's effetiveness where regulation are concerned. Both rifles regulated with a slight lowering in elevation, but put all rounds (6) into a 3" group at 100 yds. The one I have now is going in for another re-chamber from 458RCBS, to 450NE 3 1/4", shortly!

The hammer rifle is no more dangerous than a hammerless double rifle. In fact, the hammer double is safer in many ways. If it has rebounding hammers, and the Pedersoli does, then it is safer than a hammerless to carry loaded.

Both hammers can be cocked similtaniously, and also each barrel can be cocked with out any sound at all, by holding the trigger back for the barrel you are cocking, till it engages the sear, then release the trigger, then repeat for the other barrel. This is very valuable in a rifle used over bait in a blind. A hammerless double that is loaded is also cocked, unless you are useing a Krieghoff, and only a little safety is between the primer, and tumbler/striker, an unless you have cocking indicators, you can't tell if the rifle is cocked or not my simply looking at the rifle, this isn't the case with a hammer rifle. If it is cocked, anyone can see it from 50 feet! When the crap happens, I cock both barrels at the same time with one hammer under each of my thumbs. Addtionally the rifle opens, and closes easier, and smoother, than all but the finest hammerless double, because no cocking is facilitated by the opening or closeing of the rifle. I prefere the hammerless, but I have hammer doubles, and I don't find them to be a henderance at all.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
BWN300MAG, if the rifle you are thinking of buying is the one your brother has, then I say go for it! That is a cherry little rifle, and don't worry about the strength of that rifle with the 450#2, it will be fine! The Peds are heavy for caliber, as you well know. That will only help with the substancual recoil of the 450#2. I have one now that was chambered for 458RCBS, and it takes some fairly hot loads, of IMR 4064 behind 480 gr solids. I had another chambered for the same cartridge, and I can vouch for it's effetiveness where regulation are concerned. Both rifles regulated with a slight lowering in elevation, but put all rounds (6) into a 3" group at 100 yds. The one I have now is going in for another re-chamber from 458RCBS, to 450NE 3 1/4", shortly!

The hammer rifle is no more dangerous than a hammerless double rifle. In fact, the hammer double is safer in many ways. If it has rebounding hammers, and the Pedersoli does, then it is safer than a hammerless to carry loaded.

Both hammers can be cocked similtaniously, and also each barrel can be cocked with out any sound at all, by holding the trigger back for the barrel you are cocking, till it engages the sear, then release the trigger, then repeat for the other barrel. This is very valuable in a rifle used over bait in a blind. A hammerless double that is loaded is also cocked, unless you are useing a Krieghoff, and only a little safety is between the primer, and tumbler/striker, an unless you have cocking indicators, you can't tell if the rifle is cocked or not my simply looking at the rifle, this isn't the case with a hammer rifle. If it is cocked, anyone can see it from 50 feet! When the crap happens, I cock both barrels at the same time with one hammer under each of my thumbs. Addtionally the rifle opens, and closes easier, and smoother, than all but the finest hammerless double, because no cocking is facilitated by the opening or closeing of the rifle. I prefere the hammerless, but I have hammer doubles, and I don't find them to be a henderance at all.

Good post
I learned somthing new about cocking the double

Thanks guy .. ..
One more thing ? Could that same rifle be recambered to 45x140 or is the 450 Nitro a better route to go ..Just looking for that extra edge

Yes Mac the double in question is currently residing in Perry's (yes he is my brother) safe. It is a damn fine looking gun. It is also a damn fine shooting gun. It is almost a crime to convert such a great little gun. Because of Perry, you, Rusty, 500grains, Tony (450 NE No 2), and all the rest, I cannot live a productive life if I do not have a big double thumper (This is, I believe the best jumping off place). Thanks all for the advice, much appreciated.

Actually, there is nothing between the tumblers and strikers of most "working" hammerless doubles. The safety only blocks the triggers. This is what makes them susceptible to discharge if dropped. It is only on higher grade boxlock and sidelock weapons that there are also intercepting sears which will prevent the tumbler from falling home unless the trigger is pulled.

Any hammer gun is susceptable to having the hammer fall home when the hammer is cocked and the weapon dropped. Both rebounding and non rebounding hammer guns are also susceptable to discharge when uncocked and dropped as well. The non rebounding since the hammer rest on the striker. The rebounding because the spring which rebounds the hammer can compress if the hammer is jarred sufficiently and the hammer can strike the striker sufficiently to compress the spring which rebounds the striker. A non rebounding hammer gun is susceptable to discharge when dropped when at half cock in the same way as when at full cock.

"Dropped" should be read to mean any violent jarring. I have never heard a first or even second hand account of any double being jarred sufficiently to knock a hammer or tumbler out of dent. I have caused it to happen with one of my sidelocks, with the lock out of the gun, just to see the intercepting sear work, and it did work every time I tried it.

I have been told a first hand acount by a fellow who has had a hammer slip as he was cocking both barrels with the one thumb over both hammers technique. It occurred with a hammer shotgun he was using on driven pheasants. The gun was pointed in a safe direction, up, as he was mounting the gun and no harm was done.

I don't think there is much concern here with a gun without intercepting sears but the lesson should be to avoid the hard knocks and to always know where your muzzles are pointed.

Also, I think cocking indicators are much overrated. Every sidelock I have has them in the form of an engraved, some are gold filled, line on the exterior of the main pin of each lock. If you look you can see it, but there is never a reason to look. The opening and closing of the gun will cock the gun. You must open it and close it to load it. If it is loaded it is cocked. If you fire one barrel it is still loaded and cocked - at least half of it is - if you fire both barrels it is essentially unloaded and it is uncocked. When you assemble the gun you must remove the foreend to assemble the barrels. You must then close the barrels to attatch the forearm. To load the gun you must open the gun....To uncock the gun without firing you could pull the triggers on empty chambers, not recomended, or use snap caps, or disassemble the gun and use a block held against the standing breach. But to load it you must...

My thoughts FWIW,

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
[One more thing ? Could that same rifle be recambered to 45x140 or is the 450 Nitro a better route to go ..Just looking for that extra edge

Yes Martin, indeed the Pedersoli can be chambered for the 45-140! And is a good choice, because the rim, and extractor doesn't have to be bothered at all, as the 45 basic brass for the 45-140 has the same rim as the 45-70. The 45-140 is simply a very long 45-70. This cartridge can be loaded to some pritty decent balistics in the Pedersoli Kodiak. The 458RCBS is almost exactly the same as a 45-100, but with far hotter loads. My regulateing load for the 458RCBS is 480 gr bullet with 67.5 grs of IMR 4064, with standard CCI lr primers. My brass is HDS 45 basic, shortened to 2 3/4". It is hot, but not over loaded in that rifle. Cases simply fall out of the chambers when the rifle is tipped. I haven't shot this rifle over a chrono, but I estimate around 2000 fps, or a little more.

Mac, thanks!
BWN, sorry mind is the second thing to go!

MacD37..
Do you have any idea how much pressure the
Pedersoli can handle .. ? are you running ..?

30.000 or much higher.. ?

I was hoping to get a 400 grain solid out of it in 45/140 at atleast 2500 FPS is that just day dreaming ..?

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
MacD37..
Do you have any idea how much pressure the
Pedersoli can handle .. ? are you running ..?

30.000 or much higher.. ?

I was hoping to get a 400 grain solid out of it in 45/140 at atleast 2500 FPS is that just day dreaming ..?

I can't help specifically with the 45-70, but this is what they told me on the 9.3x74R:

Dear Mr. Helm,
Thank you for your inquiry. Please email your address to send you the care and loading instructions, these last however recommend only the use of commercial factory made ammunition, like those we load to regulate the barrels to group at 50 meters:
RWS Mantel softpoint round nose 285 grs..
It is a commercial 9,3x74R caliber, which develops a pressure of 3000 bars about 45.000
psi. Here some features of the cartridge:
muzzle velocity 2280 feet/sec Energy 3290 feet/sec
at 100 meters: velocity 2010 feet/sec Energy: 2555 feet/sec.

Best regards,
Customer Service

Davide Pedersoli & C.
Via Artigiani 57
I-25063 GARDONE VALTROMPIA (Brescia) Italy
tel.030 8915000 fax 030 8911019

You might be able to email them and get their recommendation.

Just for giggles, the A-Square loading manual shows the Commission Internationale Permanente maximum average pressure for the 9.3X74R is 43,541 CUP and 49,347 Piezo PSI.
For the .450 NE, CIP average maximum is 39,187 CUP and 44,267 Piezo PSI. Case head diameter and thrust on the breech face would also be a factor to consider.

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:
MacD37..
Do you have any idea how much pressure the
Pedersoli can handle .. ? are you running ..?

30.000 or much higher.. ?

I was hoping to get a 400 grain solid out of it in 45/140 at atleast 2500 FPS is that just day dreaming ..?

Martin, I have no real way of ststeing the actual pressures in my 458RCBS, but I doubt is is above 38,000!

The 400 gr bullet @ 2500 fps is, IMO, an day dream in a double rifle of any make,also not needed.

The .458 dia from 400 gr to 500 gr that slides through the 2000fps-2150fps window,with the 480 gr bullet being choice, while maintaining acceptable chamber pressure, is all that is needed for most hunting with a double rifle.

The above question is indicative of what I find to be the first thing done wrong by new double rifle owners. Most are handloaders of some experience, haveing done a lot of loading for bolt rifles. It seems they think they need to up the accepted velocities in their new double. This makes sense to those who are used to getting the absolute MAX from their bolt rifle cartridges.

The key to correct care, and feeding of a dpouble rifle is, to understand the double rifle's needs, and limitations. No1, the double rifle, eventhough absolutely "NEW", is still 19th century technology, and must be fed faily low pressure ammo. Addtionally, there is the matter of needing the proper velocity to make the barrels regulate. In the .458 diameter chamberings, the window for this is between 1900, and 2300 fps, in most cases, with a good starting place around 2000fps, then work up from there. I believe if you pushed a 400 gr bullet to 2500fps out of a 45-120 case, you would have trouble opening your double rifle, and I sencerly doubt it would regulate the barrels at all. The groups would be LOW, and very CROSSED, because of lack of barrel time!(bullets not staying in the barrels long enough during the recoil arc.

The 45-120/400 gr bullet, could very easily make 2000-2100fps withing safe pressure limits in a double rifle like the Pedersoli Kodiak, though some, up, and down, experimenting would be needed to get a regulateing load, I suspect.

This post was edited to read 45-120, not 45-140!

Guys,

The 3 1/4" .45 is known as the 45-120.

The 3 1/4" .50 is the 50-140

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Guys,

The 3 1/4" .45 is known as the 45-120.

The 3 1/4" .50 is the 50-140

Hog Killer

Conley Precision Cartridge Co.Premium Rifle Ammunition
The above is a link to a few diffrent rounds
including the 45/120 which is what hog kills said it is a 3 1/4 case length making the 45/140
about 4 inch case length..

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Guys,

The 3 1/4" .45 is known as the 45-120.

The 3 1/4" .50 is the 50-140

Hog Killer

You are right Hog Killer, I don't know where my head was on this one! I thought at the time the 45-140 didn't sound right, but I simply followed suit with what I read in the question. The 45-120 is 3.25" case, and the longest 45-basic case I'm aware of.

The reason i was asking is that besides there only being two folks i know with really old shapes in 45/140 i know of only one place to buy the brass and at 65.00 Pre box of 20 emptys
its costly to say the least..I will have to recheck but i think i am right about it being somewere around 4 inch case length which brings me back to the ..Will it fit into the action if rechambered ..and could that rifle be rechambered for that round ...

Hog Killer and MacD37 both of you have been helpful ...any idea's ?

Martin

Martin, The $65 per box of 20 is about right for 45-120 cases as well. That is what I make my 458RCBS cases from, and HDS is the best you can buy, but I'm not sure they still sell it. I have about 5 boxes of 458RCBS brass on hand, and ten boxes of HDS, and two boxes of RCBS brass in the 3.25" length, so I haven't needed any in a while.

MacD37
I just check with the only place i knew that carried 45-140 brass and thay no long carry it
Liberty Shooting Supplies

It looks like its now a mut point ...

Hey Martin, thanks for the link! I see they have 310 CADET brass, and I need some!

Actually the 45-120 would be a great re-chamber for the Pedersoli Kadiak double rifle.

MacD37
Your welcome.
There are a few other site's like that one it's were i picked up my first box of brass for my 50-110 BLR

I was just looking to make the "Odd man out"
rifle .. but your right the 45/120 would be quite the double in a double rifle


Martin

how does the 45/110 compare to the 450ne#2? Got a sharps in that calb. I am going to call Mckools as soon as I get wether I am going to hunt Alaska Ironed out.
Dean

The beauty of converting to 450 No2 is that the No2 is the lowest pressure round of all of the Nitro Expresses.
The case has a very strong thick rim and a definate neck and shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by tonto:
how does the 45/110 compare to the 450ne#2? Got a sharps in that calb. I am going to call Mckools as soon as I get wether I am going to hunt Alaska Ironed out.
Dean

Tonto, the 45-110 doesn't even come close to the 450#2 NE in any way! The 45-110 is almost the same case as the 458RCBS being only slightly longer. In a strong double the 45-110 can be loaded to push a 400 gr bullet at around 2000fps. pressures start getting a little high at those speeds in the 2.75" 45-70 diameter case.

The 450#2 NE is almost 4" long, and is basicly a 500 NE case necked down to take the .458 Dia bullet. The 450#2NE is loaded with 80 grs CORDITE, with a 480 gr bullet,at 2175 fps, yealding 5050 fpe at muzzle, and is done at only 13.00 Tons pressure.

The old Bison cartridges are fun to play with, but don't come close to being in the same calss as the old NE rounds designed for DGR double rifles!