I'm ordering some of those 760 grain slug cartridges for a double 10ga for fun.Here the largest thing I am likely to get close to is going to be pigs, so no problems.

But I was just wondering what game around the world they could stop at close range hypothetically.
Elephant/rhino are out I guess.
But who'd feel safe on big bears?
Buff?- essentially an underpowered 10 bore ball load bad idea?

Karl

I picked up an Aus gun mag sometime back in 93' or so that had an article about a Rigby 10bore double with steel clad bullets. They used it on Cape Buff and said it just fell over with the slug just under the hide on the far side. I remember a comment from the writer about the Yanks never seeing it because of our silly 50 cal restriction.

They would be good to stop a angry bear Just kidding.

Is there any new shotguns on the market in 10 GA caliber??

I have a Browning BPS with a shortened barrel (still legal) I would take along on trail rides in Griz areas. Our Montana griz are tiny compared to the Browns and Kodiaks of AK. Then I tried out a couple of those slugs in my recovery box and discovered that they don't penetrate anything all that well. I'm not at all recommending it but a hard cast 44 mag penetrates much better and that is in no way a stopper.

My advice is leave it home and bring a good 375H&H or more. In fact you�d be better off with a 30-06. Those 10ga slugs are great for blowing up water jugs and deer but in a pinch it really wouldn't do you a lot of good as a defense gun from the big nasties. FWIW.
John

Thanks for the replies.
John,
I would agree the higher powered rifles have it beat for killing power.
But would the penetration be at least as good as regular rifles softpoints?
The 44 with hardcast would outpenetrate quite a few softpoint loads also I'd imagine.

Karl.

Karl,

To answer your original question, I wouldn�t feel great about being forced to use a 10 ga with slugs in any of the situations you mention. Penetration is key to a dangerous or potentially dangerous encounter. You need to get deep to turn a charge and or the brain or spine to stop it quick. I know I�m not telling you anything you don�t already know but a 10 ga is not how to do it IMO.

I�ve only been charged once by a bison while doing some culling so I am no expert. I had a 416 rem and it did the job. Dropped him at about 12 feet. One shot to the brain and it was over. If I had been shooting a soft lead slug I think it might not have turned out so well for me. The bullet was a solid but a quality soft would have had the same effect placed in the same spot. The only difference is the solid went clean through the soft would have stopped somewhere along the way. A lead slug might just have ricochet off the skull.

There are far better people on this board to answer this question (more that stopping one charge) so you can take my thoughts with as much weight as you want. I am no expert on charges but I can tell you that when I�m riding with the grizzly bears around there is a good big bore rifle stoked with solids in my scabbard.

John

Would a 12 ga slug penetrate better?

Thanks!

TCG,
Better than what? A rifle with normal type hunting bullets, No. A pistol with hard cast bullets, No. A sling shot, Yes.

SD numbers are for the most part worthless (apples to oranges) but just for fun look as the SD for that slug and remember it is soft lead. That 10 ga slug has a SD of around .140. That�s pretty bad especially considering the material it is made from.
John

Karl, I wouldn't bet my life on a 10 ga! The 12 ga I hunt deer with NEVER overpenetrates even at 15 feet.
fritz454, I wouldn't count on a soft pointed bullet for bison either. I shot a bison bull with a 300 Win mag, in the head, and the bullet exploded on the skull. After three shots I managed to give him a bloody nose! Another shooter in our group had a 500 Jeffery. He finished it for me with yet another head shot, most impressive. To be honest though, the 500 Jeffery only penetrated about 2' of bison. He was using a soft point bullet, Woodleigh I think, don't know the weight. Anyway that was the inspiration for me to build my own 500 J.

Kent

Kent,

I've culled a bunch with a 223, 35 Whelen and 340 wby with regular Nosler PTs on the 35 and 340, and 55gr Nosler BT on the 223 but you have to pick for your shot. Axial joint only with the 223. Heart/Lungs with the others or the Axial joint.

What bullet were you using and at what velocity. Here again we run into that magic number of 2400 fps and stoutly constructed bullets for stopping headshots. My only point, on subject is I would rather have your 300 win than a 10 ga slug but with the 300 and a soft/hunting bullet I would be looking to break a shoulder not try a headshot unless I had a solid.

This is one of those discussions that can go round and round. I'm not saying I'm an expert my any means but if you're shooting an uninjured bison with a 300 win and typical hunting bullets you should be looking at a side neck shot on the Axial joint (just behind and below the ear) or the old heart lungs and it better be a good strong bullet because the ranges are usually short and the impact velocities are high with the 300 win.

I�d be curious about the bullet used in the 500 Jeffrey. 2� of penetration is not much. The bullet makes the difference. Any caliber over .416 and I only use solids. I can�t see a reason for a soft.

John

I meant better than a 10 ga.

Thanks.

I didn' realize a bison's skull was so hard to penetrate. Heck I have one hear and am looking at it . . . it can't be more than 3/8" thick. I really want to know what kinda modern, jacketed, 30 caliber bullet couldn't easily penetrate a bison's skull!

My 416 Rigby penetrated much more than 2' with 400gr Hornady slugs <more like 6'>. Why would anyone want something like a 500 Jeffery if it only has 1/3 the penetration of the Rigby?

Of course there could be some BS being spread too. Farmers are good at that, aren't they.

TCG, I find it hard to believe that a 10 ga would ever out-pentrate a 12 ga. Go to Federal's website and check out the ballistics. The 12 ga as more energy and higher velocity than the 10 ga. Maybe one of our resident penetration / knock down experts can explain it better.

[ 10-03-2003, 02:51: Message edited by: Judy ]

The Cool Guy - penetration would be similar unless you were using a sabot with a hunting bullet.

Yes, Judy the skull of the bison is very hard to get through.

Example, there is an outfit in Jamestown, ND that processes meat I've used. They have a USDA inspector preset at all times when processing meat for sale. They process pigs to bison. A 22 rim fire is used on everyone (cows included), all meat for sale has to be killed in the presence of an inspector, but for bison they use a 30-06. I guess they don't know what they are doing.

I've actually shot these things. You didn't mention if you have or not. Either way you can believe what you want.

Depending on the bullet, placement and velocity I can believe that in one case there was only 2' of penetration from a 500 Jeffrey. There are no absolutes in theses issues.

And by the way I'm not a farmer but if I need some fertilizer I now know where to get some.

John

Paul

John,
Thanks for your reply mate.That's what I am after-just opinions on who would feel comfortable with what.

Karl.

[ 10-03-2003, 06:47: Message edited by: Karl ]

You can use a the 10 ga. slug load data with the stout ballistic products shot cup and mylar wrap. Instead of the 760 grain slug you replace it with a 50 caliber BMG bullet in a mylar sleeve. We cut two slits about 1/2 the length of the shotcup. Penetration goes up considerably over the 72 caliber lead slug. If someone would market a true sabot for the ten guage you could easily get 2,000 fps + with a 50 caliber 400 - 450 grain bullet.
We have also shot 50 BMG's as saboted 12 guage loads using magnum steel and lead load data. 1400 FPS in the 12. Our best effort is a 400 grain 458 Barnes X bullet @ 1850 fps in a saboted 12 guage 3" shell from a rifled slug barrel. Must shoot as a single loaded round. Custom handloading for sure.

Fritz454, I was shooting factory Remington 180gr Core Lokts. Not the premiums of today, but still a good bullet. The 500 Jeffery was shooting a bullet, which looked very much like a Woodleigh. However, I did not ask the guy what they were, so we will most likely never know. He was a stranger to me. If I recall correctly he was from Texas , or maybe California.

The bullet he put into my Bison, we are talking about the 500 Jeffery, made it completely through the skull and was found in the neck under the hide. Don't recall which side anymore. I guesstimate that at 2' of penetration, may actually have been less. The bullet was flat, and I mean flat. There was only about 1/4" of shank remaining round. This same gentleman shot his own bison through the heart / lungs and that bullet was found on the off side under the hide. As I recall it wasn't quite as flat as the bullet pulled from my bull, but is still was mighty flattened out. In both cases the bison dropped at the shot. This was, as I stated earlier, my inspiration for getting my own 500 Jeffery.

Old & Slow, your sabot round isn't any better than my standard 3" magnum Foster slug round. 440 gr at 1760 fps. Muzzle energy for my factory load is 3020, your sabot handload has 3040. I'll bet you get far better penetration though!

Kent

Kent
It sounds like a Woodleigh. Going completely through the skull and ending up in the neck is no small task for a bullet. Finding the expanded slug just under the off side hide also makes sense. That is exactly what they are designed to do.

On your shot was the bull looking at you with his nose high? If so you are shooting at an almost flat skull. Core-Lokts are a good bullet but certainly not ideal for headshots on bison. You could also just have had a bullet failure. No bullet is perfect. But my guess is the angle of the head, the speed you were driving a fairly soft bullet and the hardness of the bison skull all worked against you on that shot. JMO

John

fritz454 - a bullet failure? Can't you read, or are you suggesting me had multiple bullet failures and all in a row?

This is what the farmer said. Read his profile.
==================================================
I shot a bison bull with a 300 Win mag, in the head, and the bullet exploded on the skull. After three shots I managed to give him a bloody nose!
==================================================

He says he shot it three time! For your information, I have shot a trophy bull bison. I shot it with a 416 Rigby. The performance of that bullet was what I was referring to when I said I got 6' of penetration in my earlier post. I shot that bison in the head front on. He had his head held up high too. The bullet was a Hornady, 400 gr soft point.

Kent - what kinda moron, or is it jus that you are a hick, shoots an animal as large as a bison with a 30 Win mag. Duh!

Judy Thanks for setting me straight. Maybe you should try reading the last sentence in the post above. Go on sound out the words, you can do it.

"But my guess is the angle of the head, the speed you were driving a fairly soft bullet and the hardness of the bison skull all worked against you on that shot. JMO"

Hey, I think we found the missing link in MI.

I'm done waisting my time on this looser.

Karl,

With some qualifications, I would have no problem with a 10ga slug sxs. The only 2 stipulations I would put on it are: 1.) The slug be hard cast and 2.) That it be loaded to a velocity of at least 1500 fps at the muzzle.

2 ounces hitting a bear with almost 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle is enough to turn him. Considering the fact that the slug is 3/4" in diameter, I am not particularly concerned with penetration.

Some times I really think we carried away with modern loads. This would have been more powerful than any load that Lewis and Clark had available. It would do more immediate damage and deliver more shock than a broadhead from a 70lb compound.

Would it kill the bear instantly? Only if hit directly in head. Heart shot bears have been known to kill a man. So, in the end, I see no advantage to having more penetration.

Add a set of screw rifled chokes.

Pete

[ 10-05-2003, 06:23: Message edited by: Quail Wing ]

Oh jeez that thread was good for some laughs! Judy aka Todd E is spreading fertilizer again.

Quail Wing too.

Broadhead arrows do not kill by delivering any appreciable shock. They kill by surgically clean cutting of major vessels and organs that a lot of blood can be let out of. The razor cut will not stop bleeding like the mashed and "shocked" vessel that goes into spasm and seals itself off.
Penetration is required of the arrow though. I would think an arrow a better killer than a 10 guage slug on any big game, but it has to be put in the right spot, and bleed-out time allowed. You are really comparing apples and oranges mixing broadheads and shotgun slugs!

Why not hunt with bowling balls at close range if penetration is of no use in a bullet?

Karl,
You got the opinions, eh?

I have a 10 guage double (Zabala Honchos, Spanish) that I had cut down from 32" to 24" barrels, and had rifle sights installed, a peep and a ramped bead on the rib. It lost 1.5 pounds with the 8" subtraction, now weighing 10.5 pounds. It is fun to shoot jugs of water at 25 yards offhand, with the Federal slugs. Beyond that it is hard to hit with. I did find some No. 4 shot in 3.5" shells once, and took it dove hunting, got my limit that day, and a sore shoulder.

Quailwing - Illionis? bear turning? How did you become such an expert?

DaggaRon - wrong, not Todd E, he lives in Cleveland. You claim to be a Doctor and I believe that; however, your explanation of how arrows work is somewhat simplistic. This is the mechanics of an arrow strike. It is important for medical personal working in trauma to understand the mechanics of these types of wounds and I think it is beneficial to the hunter as well. Anyway, here it is.

The broadhead arrow head works as DaggaRon said, by cutting tissues and/or major vascular or arterial vessels. However, these injuries can and will clot <bleeding stops for those who do not know what clot means> in many instances. The exception being arterial bleeds, particularly with humans, which almost never clot. However, I have read studies where male deer during the rut, have been known to clot arterial bleeds. This is believed to be, due to the fact, that during the rut male deer's blood 'thickens' with extra clotting agents. Therefore, in order for the arrow's broadhead to be most effective it must remain in the wound cavity, ideally this wound cavity will terminate well within the thorasic cavity <chest>. In this way, as the animal <or person> moves the arrow shaft, and therefore arrow broadhead also move, continually cutting and maintaining/increasing massive hemorrhaging. The obvious result is a quick bleed-out.

So when bow hunting, the hunter wants an arrow velocity, which will achieve adequate penetration into the vital <thorasic> cavity, but not over penetration. If the broadhead exits the animal the effectiveness of the arrow is extremely reduced, and in my opinion this exiting of the broadhead from the animal is the single largest reason for lost game during archery season.

Anyway, that would be the mechanics of 'how arrows kill'.

RAB and other normal people,

I found some before and after shots of the 10ga slug on the net yesterday, which showed it expanded to a great diametre.John is this typical from the ones you tested?

I think Brenneke got it right with his slugs because I've recovered some of them from soft targets looking only a bit dented and warped.

Karl.

[ 10-07-2003, 14:23: Message edited by: Karl ]

As a bow hunter, I would suggest that a complete passthrough is best. It makes two holes for the blood to come out. If you punch through both lungs or tag the heart a deer will not go far. 40-50 yds. Next, sit down and eat an apple, then go find it in about 15-20 minutes.

Karl,
Exactly right. They expand because they are just pure lead and soft as hell but don't penetrate a lot. Plenty good enough for a deer and the like but not what I would want to stop anything with teeth and a bad attitude.
John

Lars45, your approach is far better for riflemen than archers. What I posted is exactly what happens in an arrow strike, if you want to believe it or not.

Think of it this way. The arrow's broadhead is essentially a knife blade. Which does more damage. Stabbing and then cleanly withdrawing the blade <nice clean wound, in and out>, or stabbing and continually twisting the blade in the wound? Your approach is the former, mine is the latter.

[ 10-07-2003, 03:07: Message edited by: Judy ]

Bullshit Alert!!!

quote:

---

The broadhead arrow head works as DaggaRon said, by cutting tissues and/or major vascular or arterial vessels. However, these injuries can and will clot <bleeding stops for those who do not know what clot means> in many instances. The exception being arterial bleeds, particularly with humans, which almost never clot. However, I have read studies where male deer during the rut, have been known to clot arterial bleeds. This is believed to be, due to the fact, that during the rut male deer's blood 'thickens' with extra clotting agents. Therefore, in order for the arrow's broadhead to be most effective it must remain in the wound cavity, ideally this wound cavity will terminate well within the thorasic cavity <chest>. In this way, as the animal <or person> moves the arrow shaft, and therefore arrow broadhead also move, continually cutting and maintaining/increasing massive hemorrhaging. The obvious result is a quick bleed-out.

---

arty,
For sure! Judy is playing with fertilizer again.

I am with Lar45. The pass through is absolutely the best thing a broadhead can do.

Any hypercoagulability that comes with the rut would do nada toward the great vessels clotting a razor sliced wall. Also, both deer lungs and chest wall bilaterally ventilated directly to the outside might be of benefit to the hunter, not the deer. This will make the blood trail shorter in length AND easier to see when tracking.

If Judy is not Todd E, he may be W.E.T., Bill Tibbe. Anyway, Judy is all wet, he sure is. Sorry I responded. The BS, er, uh, JS was getting so deep I just had to shovel a little.

I wonder if he/it only pulls the string back half way sometimes to deliberately ensure the arrow does not fully penetrate on game.

Sounds like he /it spends a lot of time pulling something anyway.

Karl.

WOW,
I can't imgain a 500 jeffery woodliegh only penerating 2', even though the skull and neck of a bison... Might have been a hawk bullet, which are known for "coining" and shedding jackets.

on the 10 ga, I have shot a jillion bullets into clay banks and sand, some of which I meant to recover and did. My 58cal BP double and I shot a couple into a dry sand bank, in north LA, some time about.... i was FLOORED at how little it penetrated.... warren cast bullets, ~1400 fps, 600 grains... at point BLANK (ground litteraly scorched) it didn't go in 5", and the second shot didn't go 3" before "flopping" over an was found 6 or 7 inches away (impact/react). Of course it was 1.311"x1.21 but only .243 thick. these start out about .8" long and .582" around...

So, John posted about amazingly short penetration of lead slugs, and I have to agree with him, for both the reasons that I trust him, and that my results, while not indentical tests, are simular.

Anyone wanting a 500 jeffery, please search this forum on folks that have built them... built a 500a2/wells, and load it down to 500 jeffery ballistics... just a far far simpler and easier task.....and cheaper

Fritz, I LOVE the fertilizer line...

jeffe