I have been looking at a C. Lancaster 450/400 3 1/4 rifle. I haven't actually handled the rifle but have seen pictures of it. The price seems ok at 7000.00 for a British double. What should I look out for in a older British double? I don't want to get burned on my first British double purchase.

Jim Miller

Have it sent to a doubles expert for evaluation before you buy. Or buy one from a place like Westley Richards that will stand behind the gun.

I don't blame ya. If you don't want to get burned then you need some one who knows double rifles to inspect it for you.
I suggest JJ Parodeau, at Champlin Firearms your investment in an inspection will keep you from buying a problem that will require money and time to fix.

Otherwise I say "ditto" to 500 grains advice!

I agree with 500grains and Rusty.
If the dealer is honest you can ask the following questions:
Is this a Nitro Proofed rifle.
What load is the rifle proofed for, should be 60gr. of Cordite 400gr. bullet max.
What "modern" loads does the rifle shoot good.
Will he ship you the rifle for an inspection/trial, or can you go the rifle and shoot it yourself.
Does the rifle fit you?
If you can do the above, and have it inspected by an expert, and everything is ok it would be a good rifle. The 450/400 3 1/4 is an excellent calibre.
I also recommend J.J. at Champlin's.
Good luck

Jim:

Lancaster was a great maker and their rifles are usually nice. There are a number of things to look for.

1. Full, original Nitro Proof (assuming you want a nitro rifle). The proof marks will be on the barrel flats and for a .450/.400 3 1/4" gun should say "400EX" and "60 Cordite 400 MAX". A great many .400s (and quite a few other calibers as well) were also marked for the "tropical" load which in this case would be "55 Cordite 400 MAX". This is fine too but be aware that while some 55 Cord rifles will regulate perfectly with 60 Cord loads, some won't. This is because some 55 Cord rifles were regulated with the 60 Cord load, and some 55 Cord.

2. Barrel condition, barrel condition, BARREL CONDITION! If the barrels are shot, it will cost more than the $7,000 purchase price to retube it. Look for crisp rifling the full length, with no pitting. A little cordite burn in the groove is common - and at this price you should expect it. Just a little darkness in the groove in the throat is usually OK and will not normally harm accuracy, but much more than that - you better shoot it first. Also, hold the barrels up to a strong light and look at the OUTSIDE of the barrels. If some peckerwood has been shooting mono-metal bullets in it (monolithic solids, X bullets, etc.) you may see spirals on the outside from the rifling having been pressed through. If you do - RUN!

3. The action should be tight and "on face" - no looseness or "headache".

4. Check for stock fit. It should be reasonably close as is. If you need to change out a pad, or add a pad to a hard butt to get the fit right, that should be fine. If you need to do more than that, keep looking.

5. Obviously, you should also check for cracks and obvious repairs in the stock. Most important of all, make sure that the stock head is not oil soaked. This problem can be irrepairable and restocking an English double rifle properly will be extremely expensive. Also be sure that a recoil reducer has not been added as this can play merry hell with regulation. Same goes for ported barrels.

As suggested above, have it evaluated by someone who knows British double rifles. Do NOT depend on your local gunsmith. I agree entirely with the above recommendations for J. J. Perodeau. He works on mine.

The above may seem daunting but the reward is worth it.
----------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder".

Thanks for the input. You guys are a wealth of information. The owner says he will give me time to have it checked out if necessary. I know a smith in Carson City Nv., 2 hours from my home who could look at it for me. If not I could express it to JJ.

Jim Miller

470fan:

There is a gunsmith in Carson City who is reputed to be one of the better double rifle smiths in the U.S. I believe that Ray Atkinson uses him, so e-mail Ray for the reference, or search the double rifle posts, as Ray has posted the reference here before.

Alternately, Duane Wiebe in Placerville, while best known for his bolt action rifles, also knows double rifles, and I have personal knowledge of Duane's work. Duane's phone number is (530) 344-1357. If Duane can not help you, I believe that he also knows the guy in Carson City.

Also, even reputable dealers can screw up as I found out when I bought a double from Westley Richards. While others here who have dealt with Westley Richards have reported good things, my one dealing with them was less than satisfactory. Specifically, when I bought a rifle from them, they called me and asked that I send it back, as they had mistakenly sold it to another customer as well. They offered to send me another rifle that they said was nicer, to compensate for it. My first mistake was not telling them that it was now their problem, as the original rifle they sent me was what I wanted and fit me perfectly. However, I reluctantly agreed. When the second rifle arrived, It did not fit, had worse bores han the first, the wood was much plainer, and it did not have a pad like the first one. Also after shooting six rounds through it with Westley Richards factory ammo, the shots appeared to get further apart. My second mistake was that I didn't send it back immediately and demand a full refund, including postage and transfer fees. I really wanted a double, so I let them talk me into allowing them to fix it and alter the stock to my dimensions. When I got it back again, I shot it with their factory ammo, and found that it would not hold a reasonable group (less than 6-inch at 50 yards), so I sent it to David Yale for evaluation. It turned out that the head of the stock was cracked, and the gun was slightly off face. At this point, Westley offered to fix it again, but was not receptive to a refund. Since they had not discovered the problems themselves, I was disinclined to let them work on it again, so I had David Yale fix it. He did get it repaired properly and in the end it would shoot 2-inch or smaller groups at 50 yards, but the whole experience soured me on that particular rifle and on Westley Richards.

The moral of the story is that a double rifle seems to elicit a lot more emotion than other types of rifles. That emotion can cloud your judgement so be forewarned. As a first timer, find a third party to help you, and listen to them with your brain, not your heart. Also, my recommendation is NEVER buy a double that you can not physically hold and shoot. If it does not "feel" 100% right, run away.

All that said, I'm still looking for another double , but I have the scars to keep me more alert to the potential hazards.

I would really like to see a rifle barrel that had the rifling "pressed through" to the outside.

The gunsmith in Carson City must be Lee LaBas and another superb smith that is excellent with doubles is Pete Mazur in Grass Valley,CA.

Holland465,
You are correct. I believe his name is Joseph Lee Labas. I have met him in Reno at a gun shop and have talked with him on the phone about other issues. I think he is a Kreighoff dealer, but not sure.

Jim

Loud-n-boomer makes a good point. The emotion factor referred to is, I suppose, a result of the amount of money involved. You really need to be objective when evaluating a double. But after you've gotten it checked out and have determined that it fits and has no material technical problems, make sure that it "does it" for you. If you don't love it, don't buy it.

My first double rifle was also a .450/.400 3 1/4" - a Watson Brothers. There wasn't anything wrong with it, it was a good rifle. Still, I've always looked back on that rifle as something of a turkey and was never comfortable with having spent the money. The .400 that I have now was the right one from the get-go. Take your time, have 'em checked out and get the one you want - too much money not to.
----------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."