Gentlemen I have been looking at some double guns lately and was wondering, what locking system is the best for use on a double rifle?

Which system is stronger? What advantages or disadvantages does each system have please?

T/Jazz,
Just to clarify the question, do you mean what lock mechanism to actuate the firing with the trigger pull, or which fastening system to lock the action closed during firing? We may need MacD37 for an authoritative answer, but the rest of us amateurs might take a stab at it.

As for the lock mechanism, I think the Westley Richards droplock is the ultimate. It is basically a detachable boxlock mechanism: the simplicity and ruggedness yet detachable and easily replaced in the field if there should be a breakdown, rare indeed with a WR, no doubt. The locks drop out from the underside of the action, and require no weakening of the stock by wood removal. Has the overall first-glance appearance of a boxlock too.

The sidelocks are more complicated, expensive, and require wood removal from the stock, but also might include an extended tang to strengthen the stock. They have more room for engraving, but you can also get that on side plates with a boxlock. Maybe the sidelocks need to be detachable because they are more prone to failure than the rugged boxlock? How gauche of me to think such a thing! Forgive me H&H.

An Anson&Deeley boxlock is good enough for a commoner like me. Strong and simple.

There are more action types, like bar-in-wood, blitz, snap action, but I don't think any others can compete with the three above. Someone more expert than me would have to elaborate on or refute that if they can.

As for the fasteners, that could get long winded. My impression of the best, so far as I have surmised, is this, to be brief:

Chopper lump barrels with the double Purdey crossbolts locking into their bites in the two lumps.

A third fastener is required, but what is best? A true Greener crossbolt, doll's head, rising bite, or hidden third fastener? Take your pick, as long as one of the third fasteners is there

Ross Seyfried swoons over the rising bite, and it has some originator's name associated with it, which I don't recall. It is a marvelous piece of work.

I think the true Greener crossbolt is as strong as any, and has to have a round through bolt to be true: a round peg in the round hole, no square peg imitations allowed.

And side clips where the breech meets the standing face don't hurt a thing. These are sort of like a "fourth fastener" if properly executed.

A swell where the standing face meets the flats of the action is also a good thing for strength.

The Merkel 140 A has everything as far as I am concerned, except the droplock action of WR.

Someone around here has a WR droplock in 500 NE, the ultimate double rifle all around, to my way of thinking.

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RAB

RAB,
Mentioned many of the tweaks administered to the Purdey underlug double bite lock-up over the years to make it more tolerant of higher pressures and higher thrust loads. Generally, speaking on the new guns that is what you will get. Depending upon how many of these tweaks the rifle has the following is more or less true. Most of the tweaks that RAB described can apply to the other lock-up systems.

On the older guns you may find your self looking at underlever locking systems. The best of these in my opinion is the Jones. It is actually stronger than the top lever system RAB has spoken of. The draw back to the Jones underlever is that it is cumbersome and awkward to operate and none to pretty (just my opinion).

My personal favorite is the "Snap Action". Which I have always referred to genertically as THE underlever. It is fast, safe to the operator (top levers have a nasty habit of trying to pierce one's thumb) and stong. In my opinion stronger than the top lever. I also think that it looks the sexiest! To me the top lever guns look to much like shotguns (although it can be interesting at the range when everyone is wondering why the hell you are shooting a double barrel 12 gauge at 100 yards). I have never seen a snap action shotgun! The release lever looks somewhat like those utilized on the Ruger No1 if you have never before seen one.

Now having said all that none of the potential actions can handle much true abuse. Say like loading cartridges too hot. This behavior while possible with a bolt action will literally destroy any double. The difference between the aforementioned actions is whether this abuse leads to destruction in 1 shot or 10. If the weapon you are interested is in good working order it should provide you with good service if loaded and maintained as intended.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-14-2002).]

Stupid me! I always thought the best locking system for a double rifle was the locking system on the one in my hands!

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Andy Cooper

With respect to the type of action for a doublegun, historically the back action sidelock has been considered the strongest with the Blitz or triggerplate action as strong but not as pleasing to the eye. These are followed by the bar action sidelock and lastly the boxlock. The reasoning for this ranking is as follows. The boxlock has to have a lot of metal removed from the bottom of the bar to house the cocking levers and hammer, furthermore the screw that holds the hammers must be drilled directly below the junction of the bar and action face. This area has the most stress placed on it during firing. So drilling holes and removing metal in this area are not conducive to strength. Early actions have cracked at this point. In the bar-action sidelock the hammer pins are located on the sidelock plate and such no hole is present at the breech/action face juncture. However this action is also weak in that metal must be removed from the action bar to fit the main leaf springs. By moving the mainspring to the rear of the action as in a back action or Blitz system the metal in the action bar is left entact. The English backaction sidelock has gotten the nod as the best over the Blitz due mainly to looks and elegance, it just dresses up prettier. However, from a strength standpoint, there is no difference. Before I offend any boxlock devotees let me state that this is in historical context, in the early days a straight boxlock with the Purdey underbolt shot off face fairly quickly and some receivers cracked. The same thing happened to sidelocks just not as often. Various improvements occured such as adding the third fastener, side clips, Greener crossbolt, and adding more metal at the bar/breechface area. As the years progressed and steel improved, reliability also improved to the point that it doesn't matter what type of action you use, as they are all strong enough for their intended purposes.

Andy, I think you have the matter well in Hand!
I think the best double rifle is the one you like, can hit what you shoot at and can afford! That's the BEST double rifle of all! The one you own!

Unless you are about to trade up, then . . . well, perhaps another thread!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 04-15-2002).]

Perhaps some of the weaknesses of the boxlock are not as important today as 100 years ago because of the excellent steel available today (compared to the soft marshmallow steel of 100 years ago).

Ok I don't know a damn thing about a double rifle, but after reading all the pro's and con's of getting a bolt gun made.....and have read where many haven't got what they wanted.

I have decided to look at the double gun, because of its speed of the 2nd shot and less things to go wrong in the field. I want a foolproof, accurate, and extremely dependable rifle for buffalo hunting.

I surely can't see myself purchasing a $75,000 dollar (Holland & Holland) for this trip to Africa down the road. So given the fact that most bolt action custom rifles run around $5000 dollars (US BUCKS) I can justify the extra couple of grand or so as an insurance policy perhaps. I do have a budget so to speak of $10,000 (US BUCKS) I am willing to part with for this rifle.

Why just trying to get one of these double rifles in ones hand, is not the snap of the fingers deal, one who has never been there would think. So I am trying to look at ALL avenues of approach before making my choice.
All I have ever heard referred to the doubles is "Box Lock" or "Side Lock" pardon my ignorance here, but those are the only facts I know of at the moment.

Caliber wise I am thinking the 470 Nitro Express or the new 500 Nitro Express or the newer 500/416. Any comments on these calibers gentlemen? By all means feel free to comment please.

T/Jazz,
Make some method to this madness and the thing will soon be in your hands. I share your affliction as do many others here.

The 500 NE is older than the 470 NE.

The thing about the 470 NE, is that ammo is factory loaded by Federal, plus any one of the smaller suppliers of 500 NE usually.

There must be a reason for the 470 NE being so popular. It is number one in sales, is it not?

My choices of chambering for a double, FWIW:
1. 470 NE
2. 500 NE
3. 450/400 NE
4. Any of the other rimmed cartridges over 40 caliber, if only I could afford them.

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RAB

For hunting ( not stopping ) I would prefer the .450 3 1/4" NE for Africa. Its the mother of all and was completely satisfying until some law came ...

Also might be loaded with lighter .458 ( .45-70 )bullets at the same speed for lesser game and woods hunting.

For all around use the differences between 9.3x74R, .375 Flanged and .450/400 3" are small.

Have fun! Hermann

P.S.: I would rate the .470 lower regarding penetration than the .450. Ditto for .577 and .600.

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