Greetings gentlemen, on another forum there is a discussion on the DG capabilities of Winchesters 458. I maintain that with a 450gr or 480 gr Woddleigh at around 2200 fps would be effective even as a charge stopper, others say a Lott is the smallest effective 458. My question is: 20grs of bullet weight and 100-150 fps make that much difference? I have no experience with DG so I defer to you guys, opinions?

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Originally posted by Nframe:
Greetings gentlemen, on another forum there is a discussion on the DG capabilities of Winchesters 458. I maintain that with a 450gr or 480 gr Woddleigh at around 2200 fps would be effective even as a charge stopper, others say a Lott is the smallest effective 458. My question is: 20grs of bullet weight and 100-150 fps make that much difference? I have no experience with DG so I defer to you guys, opinions?

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I think you are right, and so would Finn Aagard and Ron Thompson, and Harry Selby, etc., etc.

A better bullet might be the North Fork .458/450gr CP, FP, or SP. There is no better than that.

I used a 458wm 450grains at 2200fps took a buffalo and elephant. Its not a 458lott but I think its a 458enough.
Dean

With the .458 WM figures that you reference, you are duplicating the .450 N.E. If the .450 Nitro worked in 1906 (and it is the caliber against which all African calibers are measured), I figure that the .458 WM does just fine.

The complaints against the .458 WM came from old loads that tried to get too much out of the case size and from old style bullets that sometimes deformed. With modern powders and 450 grain bullets that are much superior to the old-style bullets and have a SD of .300+, one can get 2150 fps (mighty close to the classic .450 Nitro load) with only slight compression and at pressures that even in hot weather won't be excessive.

I write all this, but many professional elephant hunters used .500 Nitros and even .577's for (to them) very good reasons. They wanted to live.... But as a non-professional hunter, a .458 diameter, 450 grain premium bullet at over 2000 fps, well aimed, will do whatever the non-professional hunter in Africa needs.

I have had (still have one), six .458 WM's and like the availability of ammo and the "live withable" recoil. I also have a CZ .458 Lott. More is better, IMHO... if you can shoot it... but it surely isn't "necessary". Nice to have that extra velocity and ability to shoot a 500 grain bullet without worry of sticky brass.. but certainly not necessary.

I have used the .458 Win for twenty years in alaska and for the past year I have been shooting and comparing the .458 Win with the .458 Lott. Firing Hornady factory ammo across my chronograph there is all of 40fps difference between them using the same 500 grain bullet. Hell, I can throw a 500 grain bullet faster than that. The original Winchester hasn't been popular for fifty years because it didn't work. Yes, it had some growing pains. So have alot of other calibers including the newer .416 Remington and even the Lott. With the newer powders and bullets the .458 Win is an excellent stopper.

Yep,
Finn Aagard, Harry Selby, Ron Thompson, and Phil Shoemaker can't all be wrong.

When using the 458 on softer skinned animals such as elk and moose, what is an
effective bullet that will expand dependably? I would like to see a 458 Barnes
which will open its petals and cut lungs and heart. Is there such a beast?

450gr Barnes Triple shock should do quite nicely.

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Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
When using the 458 on softer skinned animals such as elk and moose, what is an
effective bullet that will expand dependably? I would like to see a 458 Barnes
which will open its petals and cut lungs and heart. Is there such a beast?

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Also, there is no doubt the 450 grain North Fork SPS soft will do what you want. BC is not has high as a Barnes TSX, but that is not important. Terminal performance is important, and the North Fork soft is as failsafe as it gets.

It makes a big entrance hole and geysers of liquified lung and blood eject on impact, then it comes to rest under the offside hide, even after breaking heavy shoulder and rib bones on at least one side.

I agree with all of the above, in spades.

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
When using the 458 on softer skinned animals such as elk and moose, what is an
effective bullet that will expand dependably? I would like to see a 458 Barnes
which will open its petals and cut lungs and heart. Is there such a beast?

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In their .458 X bullet Barnes goes from 300 to 500 gr in 50 gr increments.

Federal's catalog lists the .470 Nitro Express as launching it's 500gr solid at 2150fps... I'm not sure what actual real-world ballistics yield but I know I've never heard anyone suggest the .470 isn't up to par for any game.

The .458 WM with the right load can attain 2100-2150fps with the 500gr bullet with minimal tinkering. I would guess this answers the question.

Hunted buffalo in Zim this past August. Tracked down 2 dugga boys after a couple of hours on the trail. We had bumped them once and then caught up to them about 1.5 hours later. I finally had a shot where the buffalo was facing me and slightly quartering to the right (you could just see his rear on the left hand side). Buff was 20 to 25 yards away (heavy cover) and I shot him in the heart with a 400 grain Barnes X at just over 2,400 fps (chronographed) from my 416 Rigby.

I hit exactly where I aimed, but the Buff came for us at the shot. The Buff made about 3 to 5 yards and my PH (Ian Gibson, Big 5 Safaris) shot. Ian's shot dropped the Buff instantly. He hit him with a 500 grain Barnes solid from an old push feed Model 70 with 22" barrel. I doubt that bullet was even going 2,000 fps. Anyway, Ian hit the Buff about 2" higher and 1" to the right of my first shot. As he shot, I was reloading and then shot the buffalo again while he was on the ground, but I shot high and hit him far back. The Buff never got up after Ian's shot. I'm sure Ian clipped the spine where it comes down low in the neck. When we got up close and looked at my 1st shot, Ian said "the buff would have died within 40 yards from that shot, however, we were only 20 yards away".

The 458 WM seems to be enough gun for Ian and he has used it to back up hunters on number buff, ele, lion, leopard, etc. hunts. The difference is that he has confidence in his shot placement.

By the way, I would be willing to bet that most of the Federal 470NE 500 grain ammo does not chronograph above 2,100 fps in most doubleguns.

On my next buff hunt (August 2006) I will be taking my Pre-64 M70 Supergrade .458 Win Mag with the factory 25" barrel. I have an accurate load of 500 grain Swift A-Frames that chrono at 2,175 fps. The 500 grain Hornady solids shoot to the same POI at the same velocity. Should do the trick.

The .458 Win Mag is enough for me.

Tim

Thanks for all of the replies gentlemen, It's nice to talk with people who have experience with DG and the loads/calibers which do the job.

Sometimes I read my posts and they sound like BS, so I have to dig out the photos to remind myself that they really happend








Oh yeah, a 375 H&H will also work:




Can't wait to get back to Chewore for another buff!!!

Tim

Great photo's, what loads were you using for each? Tell the stories!

They are very good Photo's !!

The top three photos are from my most recent buff hunt (August 2004) in the Chewore North area of Zimbabwe. As I posted above, I hit this buffalo in the chest with a 400 grain Barnes X and he came for us at the shot. The PH shot and dropped him after he came about 5 yards. I was reloading and shot as he hit the ground. My 2nd shot (400 grain Bridger Solid @ 2,400 fps) went high and hit him in the back while he laid there in that position. You can see the blood on his back from this (poor) shot. Both 400 grain bullets were loaded with 100 grains of H4831sc, Norma Brass, CCI large rifle mag primers.

The last photo is of my first buffalo that I also took in Chewore North back in October 2001. I shot him out of the herd. Put a 300 grain Swift A-Frame into his lungs with the first shot. He took off with the herd but quickly fell behind. I then shot him with 3 solids (300 grn Barnes X, 71 grain RL15, Win Brass, CCI Large Rifle Mag primer) at 2,525 fps. My 2nd shot (solid) went through both lungs and entered about an inch from my first shot. He was then moving very slow and I put my third shot (a solid) through the shoulders. It went clean through. Now the bull was just standing there and not moving. I quickly placed a 4th shot (solid) through the shoulders again and then he dropped to the ground and never moved again.

Great fun and I can't wait to take a 3rd buffalo in 2006 while using my 458 Win Mag.

Tim

I think the 458 Win is a suitable rifle for Cape Buffalo with a proper handload and I have seen it kill buffalo on many ocassions and I have shot some buffalo with it and a handloaded 500 gr. bullet..

I do think its a poorly designed cartridge from the get go and does not have enough powder capacity and tends towards compaction and this has been proved on many ocassions, Its downside is legend among African PHs and gun scribes and where there is smoke, then there is fire IMO. I have chronograped some factory ammo as low as 1800 plus FPS and IMO a 500 gr. bullet needs to be cooking at least 2000 FPS to be an effective and reasonable load...

Therefore, I much prefer the 416 Rem, 404 Jefferys or the 458 Lott but for those who care to use a 458 Win then be my guest, but kindly allow me my opinnion on the subject and that is it should have been a 3" case to start with.

Ray,

I agree with you 100%. I would only hunt with RECENTLY loaded handloads that I have chronographed. I know that I can get 2,175 fps with a 500 grain Swift A-Frame and Hornady solid. It may be that I am getting some help from a 25" barrel. These loads are probably better than most 470 NE with Factory loads. I know that a 500 grain .458 bullet at 2,175 can do the trick.

If I was shooting a 22" or 24" barrled .458 with 500 grain factory loads, then I would have some concern. Also, it is important to note that a 450 grain .458" bullet has a better sectional density than a 300 grain .375" bullet. It is not hard to drive a 450 grain bullet over 2,200 fps from the 458 Win Mag. Maybe a decent compromise. Also, I think that Barnes new banded bullets (softs & solids) should help kick up the 458 Win Mag velocity.

Tim

Sorry for linking another board but this may be of interest.

Here

I often think it is a pity that the 450 Ackley did not become the standard 45 to replace the 458.

For those of you who have not loaded for the 460 Wby it is just like cruising around in a big V8 manual compared to the others.

They shoot beautifully from 85 grains of 4064 for just over 2000 f/s with 500 grainers and air rifle type pressure and velocities of 2300 with 500 grainers are reduced loads. Ditto obviously for the 450 Dakota and 450 Rigby.

I am suprised with the number of CZs out there in 416 Rigby that there are not more rebarrels to 450 Rigby/Dakota, should be a simple conversion.

Mike

Yeah your right Mike, the .460 loaded right is a good round and even a re-chamber of a .458 innie cz would be a smart move I feel..........you get the integral Island base then, brass is not that hard to get and dies are fine, probably an easier road to travel re; components and properly head stamped brass than the .450 Rigby

PC,

Maybe if the CZ in 450 Rigby takes off Norma might start doing 450 Rigby cases.

Mike

First let me say I have limited experience with Big Bores...but learning quickly with the help of so many folks here...Thanks!...

I do not have the equipment to actually test such things as pressure, etc and my results may differ from others as variables will changed results.

I purchased both a 458 win. mag. and a 458 Lott (both CZ's, 25" barrels). Among the factory ammo. 458 win. mag. I actually chornographed were the Winchester 510 grain softs at a nominal 2025 fps, Federal 500 grain TB softs at a nominal 2100+ fps. My reloads chornographed included Barnes 500 grain solids and 500 grain TSX, it was no problem (at least I did not see any outward signs of pressure that would cause concern) to produce a nominal 2150 fps...Yes, these loads were compressed, however, this testing was done in 90+ degree heat and I saw no problems with it...

I did not have a chance to chronograph the Hornady 458 Lott factory ammo. but my gunsmith did and he advised it produced a nominal 2250 fps. My handloading for the Lott was with Barnes 500 grain Solids and Triple Shocks working up loads from the Barnes Manual. My initial loads (starting loads) chrnographed nominal 2225 fps with the TSX and 2250 fps with solids. It has been no problem, in my rifle, to load just past 2300 fps with either bullet in the Lott and it is most likely capable of more based on what I have seen...possibly with a different powder....but what is the point of going any faster with a 500 grain bullet?????

Based on what others here have to say and my own results I would think a properly loaded 458 win. mag. is more than capable to take any DG within proper range. Another option which I would explore with the 458 win. mag. is the 450 grain TSX and the North Fork Cup Points. Those bullets have the SD and could add the velocity and energy desired...but either the 500 or 450's in the win mag should work fine.

All that said, if I was going to purchase a new rifle and I had the choice of either the Lott or win. mag., I would purchase the Lott...it can be loaded to win. mag levels, and based upon my results, 150+ fps faster...if you so desire...

If I ran across a pre 64 458 win mag or another nice rifle I would buy with no reservation..Good luck JJS

jjs,

If you are going to take the slant of being reasonable in your arguments, you will get stoned around here. Speculation and incidental anecdote is much preferred.

In most cases the .470 NE (re: 500 gr. at ~2150 fps) in my experience, and hence similarly the 458 WM, in no way over-penetrates! It has gotten the job done most of the time in the past, but as you say the Lott is better, but sometimes it, likewise, is just barely enough.

Will,

I sure do not wish to get "stoned"...and will attempt to "juice it up" in the future.

I would assume with those AGS you can load the win. mag to 2200+fps....I hope one the the bullets I gave you the "lead" on takes an Elephant... best of luck on your hunt...jjs

jjs,

Thanks for the lead, just what I need is more bullets!

I think we should come up with a generic post of anecdotal eveidence. Everyone should feel free to modify as the situation warrants.

"I have not taken a ___________ personally, but my PH __________ once shot a _______ with a ______ bullet at _________ ft/s, that not only penterated the __________ from stem to stern but produced a blood spout about ________ feet high. The _________ bullet is the one I would recommend, including the _________ cartridge."

Throwing in a quote from a gun writer will only add authenticity!

I'll try this over on African Hunting and see if some of the "persons of interest" bite on it!