Dave Estergaard, originator of the 470 Mbogo, says that Peter Cardona of Quality Cartridge, might make some of this brass. I am waiting to hear from him, Mr. Cardona, as to when I can get some of that brass. I would like to start with 100 pieces.

Quality Cartridge:

www.owlnet.quality/index.html

Or try this one:

www.qual-cart.com

Phone/Fax: 301-373-3719 (I have left a message.)

email: abn82d@hotmail.com (email sent)

It would be nice to have a source for that brass. If anyone is interested, please try to contact Quality Cartridge with your, and my, request.

"470 Mbogo" is a great designation for a cartridge that has it all.

Ways to go:

Barrel an action big enough for the 416 Rigby.

Rebarrel an existing 416 Rigby rifle.

Rebore a rifle in 416 Rigby or 460 Weatherby, etc.?

Any gunsmiths with experience in getting CZ 550 barrels off? Do they epoxy or loctite the threads of those CZ 550 Magnum barrels?

[ 09-02-2002, 07:29: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Well, well, well, Pete Cardona, of Quality Cartridge fame, just sent me an email saying that they were getting the headstamp made for the 470 Mbogo, and should be ready to roll by the end of September, just a month from now. A momentous ocasion! Quality Cartridge brass is good stuff.

DaggaRon (still love that handle!),

Have you been given any indication how much 100 cases will cost?

I would be interested too if the price is reasonable.

Thanks,
Canuck

Canuck,
Of course, you thought up the handle, I used it!

I don't have any price yet, but Pete's other prices are reasonable.

Maybe Dave has talked to Peter Cardona more than I have. We shall see.

Let us wait until the end of September 2002 before we deluge them with orders.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaggaRon:
Hi DaggaRon,
That's good news that Peter has moved forward with the project. He contacted me when a client of his showed interest in the 470 Mbogo. He contacted me by e-mail and I forwarded drawings to him. I'll be keen to see the finished product and how the headstamp turns out. Thanks for putting in the brass order with him as it will make it easier for anyone else with interest in the cartridge. When you need reamers and headspace gauges send me an e-mail.
Take good care,
470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo,
Thanks. I got a call from Peter Cardona also. The price should be available very soon. It depends on what he has to pay for BeLL 416 Rigby basic, as that is what he will headstamp to make the 470 Mbogo case. I will get a barrel and dies on the way too. Thanks for the loan/rental of the reamer and headspace guages. I will let you know when I get ready for it, I expect that will be in about six weeks, if I can get my name on the list now.

[ 09-01-2002, 20:29: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I might be interested to get some 470 Mbogo brass but I am not sure about using those BELL brass. Starline is another company that might be interested in making a small run of brass and they use their own material. I am very pleased with their pistol brass so I assume that they would make good rifle brass as well.

By the way, I have a 416 Rigby CZ 550 waiting around to be turned into something bigger and the 470 Mbogo is a very promising candidate for it. I have some 450 Dakota dummy rounds on hand and the big CZ 550 seems to feed these rounds perfectly without any feed work. I think the 470 Mbogo might require some feed work but it should not take much.

Cheers!
Ming

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ming
Hi Ming,
The brass that Peter will be using is Mast Technologies cylindrical 416 Rigby brass without the headstamp. I have been using this brass from day one and it is very good brass. I have brass that has been loaded twelve times and takes a primer as if the brass was new. I have never had a neck crack and I've never anealed a case. This is very good brass.

The CZ 550 action will feed without any fuss. I did widen the feed ramp and lower the top edge a very small amount to see if I could make it smoother and it did help but it did feed prior. Polishing the feed ramp is a good plan also. To do this work took me a couple of hours and it was well worth it. If you need reamers etc send me an e-mail also. When you have your barrel installed and chambered make sure they bevel the end of the chamber so it helps with the cartridge entering the chamber. You won't be disapointed with the cartridge if you choose to go that way.

Take good care,
470 Mbogo

Ming,

I do believe they are making the extra-strong and close-spec brass for the 408 Chey-Tac nowadays, since Bertram stuff was not up to snuff.

I would not hesitate to buy BELL now.

I have a dummy 470 Mbogo that is loaded with what looks like a Barnes solid. This dummy feeds from the 416 Rigby CZ, but I can tell the feed ramp needs to be widened a bit in the bottom corners where the ramp meets the box. No other modification should be needed, using the 416 Rigby CZ 550. It will work without this modification, but it ought to be slick as greased owl crap WITH opening up the feed ramp just a smidgeon.

First there was the DaggaRifle. Now there is the MbogoRifle!

Now that is progress of some kind!

PS: I better let Dave "470 Mbogo" Estergaard answer any further questions on this cartridge and gunsmithing of rifles. Of course he has already said a whole bunch at:

www.470mbogo.com

[ 09-01-2002, 20:38: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaggaRon
HI DaggaRon,
The website address that I have for Quality Cartridge is www.qual-cart.com The link you put up wouldn't go anywhere. I had to go back through my e-mails because I just downloaded Netscape 7.0 and deleted my 4.5, so lost all my bookmarks. Clever heh. I'm just going to visit with Canuck and do some Elk hunting. We're going to take some big bore video for the site and the forum. We'll try and make it fun.

470 Mbogo

Dave,
That was an old address that used to work, and was working recently for me. I will duly note the new address.

Price news, 470 Mbogo brass:
$59.97 for 20 or $284.00 for 100

The BeLL/MAST retail price for the 416 Rigby basic is $34.50/20 or $159/100, and they charge the same price for the formed 416 Rigby.

For this price from Quality Cartridge, hopefully it comes formed with a shoulder and trimmed to the correct length, as well as the proper headstamp for 470 Mbogo.

Thanks guys for the info. It is good to know that their 416 basic brass is better than their Lott brass. By the way, MidwayUSA is selling Bell 416 Rigby basic brass for $22.50 per 20. Unless there is a need for a headstamped brass, I think it would be much more economical to get some basic brass and fire form them yourself.

470 Mbogo,

Why did you make the neck so short for the 470? Does the 475 cal. 500-grainer have a shorter body than the 45 cal. 500-grainer? The 470 Mbogo looks very impressive regardless but I was just curious why the 470 has a shorter neck than the 416 or the 450.

DaggaRon,

It's good to hear about the MbogoRifle. Please keep us posted on the progress of this rifle. I hope to get my rifle going soon.

Cheers! Ming

I realise that the 470 Mbogo is a slighty bigger case than the 460 Wby/450 Dakota or 500 A Square, but what are its pluses over the 45 and 50 or is it in the "just to have" category

Mike

Mike,
Must be largely "just to have," but bigger holes let blood out faster. It is the biggest thing you can do with the beltless Rigby case, and it is more manageable in recoil and second shot speed than the 500 A2 for most mortals, and the name just has a ring to it, eh? Also, if I have a 460 Weatherby already, that can use the common .458 bullets, the 470 Mbogo just has more appeal to me personally. The slightly shorter 500 grain .475 bullets might be more stable than the longer .458 bullets when it comes to penetration with solids. The bigger bore .475 will give lower pressures at the same velocity than the .458 pushing the same 500 grain bullet weight, maybe. Any bigger than the .475 bore and you have to go over 500 grains to get a decent bullet for DG, and there goes the recoil. The 416 Rigby case head with absolutely nonrebated rim is the biggest thing you can do to a boltface of the common 0.700" diameter without emaciating the boltface?

Dave,
I don't recall the barrel twist you used on the Pac-Nor barreled CZ 550. Is it the 6 groove 16" twist or the 8 groove 18" twist. McGowen had some 10" twist .475 barrels on hand once upon a time. What are your thoughts on barrel twist?

Could one of you fine gents send me a dummy round for a nominal fee? I'm starting a collection.

Best,
QD

RAB,

Got the picture.

Mike

Ming,
That is really cheap for the 416 Rigby basic brass. The current dealer price MAST listed was $27/20, so that would be below wholesale, old inventory?

Of course we can make our own brass cheaper, but it doesn't have the headstamp.

Quickdraw,
I only have one dummy and no dies or brass yet. dave Estergaard is the only guy I know of who could supply dummies until Peter Cardona gets his brass made. Let us be nice and pay something for any reamer rentals or dummies, Dave is very reasonable, and I am sure just wants to see his baby get the recognition it deserves.

BTW, CH4D says they are going to start making dies for the 470 Mbogo in two weeks. Should be ready in about 6 weeks. This latest news in an email from Dave Davison of CH4D.

Canuck,
Guess I am joining the 470 Mbogo club with the rest of you guys in the know.

470 Mbogo Dave,
So what is the best barrel for a 470 Mbogo? I have a 460 Weatherby made from a BBK-02 and a laminated stock that already has 3 cross bolts, one axial bolt through the grip area, and pillar bedding: X, Y, and Z axes covered. The 470 Mbogo dummy feeds better through the 460 Wby than the 416 Rigby.

Maybe these 470 Mbogo dummies will become another big Canadian export item, like the Crash Test Dummies were hot at one time?

Canuck,
Well, you know what Mike375 said about the 585 Nyati being like a motorcycle crash ... I reckon all big bore nuts are some sort of crash test dummies. And that would include me too ... but I draw the line just short of motorcycles for my crash testing. The 470 Mbogo would seem to be a survivable vehicle for crash test fun over the long haul.

So, whenever Dave can take a gander at the screen, maybe we will get his opinion of barrel twist rate for the 470 Mbogo.

RAB,

For an all round big bore (meaning you use it for everything and anything) these 470 caliber rifles should be much better than previous with the introduction of the 480 pistol bullets. I think some of then go to 400 grains.

A 470 Nitro in the Ruger 1 would be a good thing.

Mike

Mike,
Good point. The Hornady XTP 400 grain .475 cal. revolver bullet loaded down to 45/70 ballistics would make a nice deer and varmint round. I imagine IMR 3031 or equivalent with a little wad of filler might work wonders. Maybe I should make my 470 Mbogo light and handy and become a crash test dummy of major proportions with full power loads.

Canuck,
Now about that crappy photo of you that JJ took: You were actually just practicing your rhino hunting technique, right? I imagine it went something like this ... "First I must think like a rhino and act like a rhino if I am to be successful in taking a rhino ...hmm ... Does a rhino crap in the road? Why of course!"

About that time JJ happened along with camera, and the rest is history. A "Crap Test Dummy" is born!

Forgive me please! I couldn't resist. The witchdoctor made me do it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaggaRon:
Hi DaggaRon,
I made it up to Chris's and found a lot has happened during my drive up. The barrel that I have is the 6 groove 16 twist and I've had no problems as far as stabilization. I haven't shot any of the 560 grain GScustom solids but I don't anticipate any problems. They're about the same length as a 500 grain .458 Barnes X. The 1 in 16 twist seems to be the .475 caliber standard and works well accuracy wise also.
Ming,
The neck on the 470 Mbogo case is .400 in length and the bullets in .475 when loaded to 3.740 come flush to the bottom of the neck and don't protrude into the powder area. I've talked with Dave at ch4d to make sure that the dies shrink the neck down sufficiently before the sizer ball is pulled back up through to give good neck tension. The first set of dies that RCBS made were a little shy on sqeezing the neck down enough. The Mast brass is ten thousands thick in the neck area so with a bullet seated in a case the OD of the brass measures .495. On the reamer drawings JGS thought it best that the neck of the chamber be left larger incase a different brass was used with a thicker neck. RCBS worked off the reamer drawings and forgot that I mentioned about the neck thickness of the brass that was being used. Dave at ch4d has the info in writting so his dies should give better neck tension overall. The long and short is that I've never had a problem with mine and it seems things are only getting better.

Quickdraw and Ming,
Send me an email with your addresses and I'll organise a dummy round for you. It's like a picture is worth a thousand words.

Take good care,
470 Mbogo

470 Mbogo,

Thanks for the insight of your cartridge and your offer of a dummy round. I would like to buy a few dummy rounds from you if you don't mind. These rounds will come in handy when the time comes to message the feedwork. Anyway, I will email you in a few days when you get back home. Have fun! Cheers! Ming

Personally I think that all 416 Rigbys should promptly be rebarreled to 470 mbogo, as the latter offers a fabulous combination of bore diameter and bullet weight.

Is the 470 mobogo just the .416 Rigby necked up to .470 caliber ???

PC,

The answer is yes. Although it is called 470, it is in fact a 475 caliber, which is the same diameter as my 475 Linebaugh or 480 Ruger.

470 Mbogo and DaggaRon,

I just ordered my 470 Mbogo dies from CH4D today so I will be joining the club hopefully soon. According to Beth at CH4D, it will be a while may a couple of months before the dies are ready. It will be at $140 per set. I hope they are gonna be good. Later.

Cheers!
Ming

Very cool looking round

I have just finished my .585 project and in another year I will start another project I hope. The .470 Mbogo could be a contender to fill a gap between my .416 Rigby & my .585 Nyati.

The other contender's are the .505 Gibbs, .500 A2. .500 Jeffery, .458 Lott (very cheap way to fill the gap), or .450 Rigby. One of these calibres will be chosen to fill the gap in my collection. This one will be a short barreled big bore, I just think a short barrelled .505 Gibbs would look very tough

Well, I have everything on order, just waiting for it to come together. A 470 Mbogo will be mine eventually ...

Now let me get the pronunciation of this Swahili word right.

M'BOGO such that the M and the B run together, right? Sort of two syllables not three right?

Not like MA-BOGO, not EM-BOGO, not MUH-BOGO.

Mbogo = mmBo'Go, 2.5 syllables. Correct me if I am wrong.

At least it doesn't involve any San bushman tongue clicking. It could be worse, it could be !bogo.

I recently built a 470 MBOGO on a 1917 Enfield (winchester action)/Pac-Nor barrel and Elk Ridge Stock ( left hand) recently and am suitably impressed. Dave allowed me to use his reamer dimensions and have JGS make a set of Go/no-go guages. This cartridge is identical to the old .475 A&M but without a belt. Basically 460 wby performance in a beltless cartridge but with a bigger cross section. A beautifully balanced cartridge in my honest opinion! Brass and reloading dies are a problem, but it's worth it. Damn near perfect for African Dangerous game IMHO.-Rob

Hi Rob,
Glad to see your back safe and sound. I thought the 475 A&M was the 460 necked up. Cartridges Of The World list the same shoulder dimensions as the 460 Weatherby. From the above picture the 460 Weatherby is identical to the 450 Rigby in the center but without the belt. The 470 Mbogo has a longer base to shoulder length and has more of the taper taken out of the case. The 470 is .575 at the shoulder and the Weatherby is .560. The 475 A&M has an overall cartridge length of 2.90 while the 470 Mbogo has an overall case length of 2.9450. I feel the cartridge has a nice balance also and is very shootable. I hope your dies arrive soon so you can experiment with some loads and get in some good shooting. I'm hoping to take mine to Africa again in 2004.
Take good care and you have a very lucky son,
470 Mbogo