Any chance that FN would respond to a petition to build big bores? In particular to build a .404 Jeff? Or contract to build a few hundred rifles?

If so, how would we go about a web-based petition?

Just a thought.

K

I don't need no stinken FN to build a Jeffery...but then again I don't want to be selfish. I hope their listening, but they do move awful slow.

they'd rather build WSSM's and crap like that.

I'm not sure anybody there knows how to work with figured walnut and finely blued steel in real hunting calibers. Or cares...

Rich

quote:

they'd rather build WSSM's and crap like that.

Yup! That about hits the nail on the head. I admit though to be extremely curious about what the marketing geniuses will come up with next. WSSSMs? Square bullets? Ultra-Long Low Pressure Mags? (ULLPM). Who knows? Who cares!

The only petition they'll pay attention to is on an order sheet for 100 rifles, accompanied by cash.

On occasion Ruger has built a limited edition gun for specific dealer. I looked on thier web site and this year they make a 450/400 in the No1 and sell it exclusive through one dealer. I assume the dealer sponsored the idea by agreeing to take a min run of the guns. Sounds great, but I dont want one.

Ruger did offer a 404 once, ever so briefly. They got burned by the CIP specs. So; that particular caliber maybe a hard sell. Then you need to convince a dealer to agree to purchase a substantial run of guns. And they convince Ruger. The 404 is nice (and historic tradition), but with so many 40's to choose from, I wonder how many would actually sell?

Then, Its not just the caliber it is the gun. In 404, I would prefer an 8.5 lb Winchester to a 10 lb Ruger. I would also prefer a $1000 Winchester to a $2000 Anybody. Thats problem no2, is us fickle buyers.

If you have the equipment you could build what ever rifle you want.

quote:

Ruger did offer a 404 once, ever so briefly. They got burned by the CIP specs. So; that particular caliber maybe a hard sell. Then you need to convince a dealer to agree to purchase a substantial run of guns. And they convince Ruger. The 404 is nice (and historic tradition), but with so many 40's to choose from, I wonder how many would actually sell?

The 1st time around there were at least 5 variants of .404 Jeffery dimensions and unfortunately Ruger chose the wrong one. Now there is a single CIP standard for the 404 so both Ruger and FN would be safe…and best yet, Hornady now manufactures and sells the .404 Jeffery as loaded ammunition or in component form as brass and bullets. I perceive that the volume would definitely exceed the .470 Capstick that New Haven’s custom shop produced.

I definitely hope that the “future” FN/Winchester M70 .404 Jeffery is not handicapped with the slow traditional twist rate. They need to use either a 10” or at least a 12” twist rate so that future mono-metal bullets are fully covered. A .416” 450gr Barnes TSX is 1.593” long so for 450gr TSX in .423” you’re looking at around 1.57”-1.58” length bullet. These longer heavier weight mono-metal bullets would move the Jeff right into the “deep penetrating” group of .416s while with the traditional or slightly lighter weight bullets would have/give the trajectory/reach of the .375 s. Just my 2-cents on the topic.

Who cares? You can go buy a CZ. Who needs Winchester?

The CZ550 in 404 is $3300 from the custom shop. Meanwhile, the CZ550 in 416 Rigby lists for $1000. Thats one problem. Then the $1000 CZ often have issues. Another problem.

The Win70 was always a reliable gun right out of the box.

Can you imagine if Winchester had the guts to take a chance and offer the new M70 safari in 375HH, 404J, 458Lott - right out of the gate, no custom shop BS $$.

I maybe out of step, but I dont want a 404 elephant rifle. I would like the origional 404 that worked for 100 years. A light responsive medium rifle, same class as 375H&H, just tad bigger bullets.

Agree fourbore, and I have a CZ which I like a lot, but a lot of TLC went into it. If they just came out with a 375 H&H and a 458 Win Mag that would be one hell of a start.

Chuck

Wonders never cease, but unless the sale of Winchester's present offerings of M70's don't carve a bigger piece of the crowded market, not likely they will spend additonal "start up" dollars to market a caliber as in 404, etc. when the number of likely buyers out there is relatively small. I am sure it is different in other parts of the nation, but local dealers in my area rarely if ever stock a "new,new..." Model 70 rifle. In fact I have only seen one new one in the past 2 years at the local ranges, but will say the one I looked at and shot seems like a fine rifle, but when you have a stop and go hitch in marketing,sales,production, the buying public quickly looses any brand loyalty. You never know, if you flood their web site w/ requests, they may well listen, but would not hold my breath.
Now that I have made this very profound prediction, they will introduce not only the 404Jeff, but 375HH and 458/458Lott tomorrow. Let's hope I am wrong in my predictions for it would be good to see Winchester return to a front line producer of fine firearms.

I hope I am not letting the cat out of the bag, but if you call Harlan (sp?) you can get a standard grade 404 cheaper. Just don't tell everybody. Mine was $1300.

Rich

Betcha if they do come out with any African calibers, the first two will be a .458 Win and a .375 H&H. Just prognosticating, of course.

But a very safe statement, I agree wholeheartedly.

And everyone thinks the Montana Rifle Co PH action is taking a long time to completion? Ain't never gonna see a big bore rifle from the new Winchester company.....they can't even sell what regular rifles they are producing. If Cabela's can't move them at marked down pricing...what does that tell you? Tells me that they are on a slippery slope. BTW...I do like Winchesters and have more than a few.

That's kind of sad to hear Woodrow. I wish they would give up on the WSM and WSSMs myself. They could limit themselves to 270, 30-06,300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag and sell a bunch if they built their advertising around the pre-64.

I guess I'll be talking to Wayne when my boy gets near to finishing his 4 year tour for a left handed 375 H&H ... I'm happy with my CZ but they do want some TLC to start with ...

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

The Win70 was always a reliable gun right out of the box.

Yea, right!?

Return on Investment ....

Caliber of the week seems to be the trend. Why? Most of us have all the rifles we need so, manufacturers must come up with something "new" and hype the hell out of it so people like us will buy it in big enough numbers to keep their doors open.

....and we should support the industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

The Win70 was always a reliable gun right out of the box.

Yea, right!?

Mine certainly is. I did a $40.00 trigger job and after a thousand rounds, a Wolff mag spring and the rifle, in .375 H&H, has really earned it's keep and is uncannily accurate. The PH on my last hunt was really impressed with the accuracy. The Safari Express certainly isn't the CZ, which needs a multi-hundred-dollar tune up to make it a viable big bore. (Although we all know .375 isn't a true big bore). I would never part with this rifle unless I was starving.

jetdrvr,

not to be cross, but...

My CZ's have not had any attention from anyone yet, and all feed and fire and eject everything I have loaded for them. 375, 416, 404, 450 Dakota, and 505 Gibbs. The Dakota has one Cape Buffalo to it's credit and the 375 two Deer and an Elk. They can be a bit rough around the edges, but at least you can buy them in the above listed calibers, plus a few more. Anything you might wish to do to a CZ is like gravy on your chicken fried steak. Makes it nicer, but you have that CFS to start with.
Here's a list of the American Manufacturers that build the above listed:

1. Dakota
2. nobody.

Yes, it would be some kind of wonderful if Winchester would offer the 404, or anything else other than the 375H&H and 458WM; even step up to the Lott. But, sadly; I do not see that happening.

Rich

Someone mentioned above concerning a Win M70s reliability, out of the box? Well I have near 100 Winchester M70s and around 60% plus being 416 caliber and over. Many of these were standard 416 Remingtons, 458 Winchesters, 458 Lott, and a couple of 470 Capsticks. Some out of the custom shop. Until the 470 Capsticks I had never once had an issue with reliability, feeding, function, and very important retaining cartridges in the magazine. The 470s had issues with retaining cartridges in the magazine. Winchester Custom shop did not realize that taking a standard long action designed for 375-458 lott what have you, and the 470 Capstick is just a bit too much to retain in the magazine. A little adjustment, and they work fine now. Other than that, I have never had feeding issues, function issues, or retaining issues with any Winchester M70 big bores. I can't speak for the WSM cartridges and some small bore cartridges. I can speak for all the B&M series that are based on WSM actions and magazines, they need some work done to retain cartridges in the magazine, but it is a simple operation.

Feeding? The Winchester M70s will feed the big flat nose solids with no problems, stoppages or issues at all. They feed where a Ruger won't even start to do so. On average you can count on a M70 to feed a flat nose that is 70% or so of diameter.

Rich

I have very little experience with CZs--I have seen and handled 4 to be exact in my life. I really don't wish to be ugly, but none of the 4 would feed or function, some of them would not even feed a round nose solid. Some were retaining issues. All were extremely rough around the edges, as you say.

As for a Winchester in 404--not likely. The action has to be modified quite a bit to retain those size cartridges. My 500 MDM is basically a 404-or RUM full length case to .500 caliber. It has to be built on one of the Winchester M70s that were chambered in 300 RUM some years ago. These actions were modified to fit that cartridge and not the standard action that say a 375 HH is.

Michael

Will

Sorry, a CZ is not even in the same class as a Winchester!

Michael

Michael,

The new FN M70 Winchester, Short Action, is available in the 270, 300, and 325 WSM cartridges; they only need to migrate the WSM modifications to the long action and you’re there.

Perhaps they need to be prodded to periodically generate runs of appropriately altered SS Long Actions for their custom shop to offer CIP, SAAMI, and wildcat chambering of Jeff and RUM derivatives.

Jim

I don't know anyone in Columbia, and no one at Winchester anymore. If they had a Custom Shop I would be on the phone every damn day and then go visit with a bunch of my stuff for them to work over. If Leslie was still at the Custom Shop if they had one, we could get somewhere with these requests. But these days, don't have a clue. You are correct, just lengthen the WSMs and we would be in business more ways that one!!!!! That would fit the 404s and all the RUMs, MDMS all of them!

I just don't have any in's at Winchester anymore.

All the long actions for the Custom Shop guns--458 Lotts--358 STAs--416s, 375s and the 470s came out of Columbia even way back. Columbia has all the tooling already in place, so it's a matter of time before they get to the big bores, but they will be 416 Remingtons, 375s, 458 Winchesters--maybe a Lott.

I wish they would do a 404 or any of the big RUMs!!! That would give us an excellent action to work off of!!!

Michael

I doubt you can count on any production rifle retailing +/-$1000 to work 100% out of the box every time, and when I did my poll on the subject that is what a lot of people said.

Some CZs and some Model 70s do, maybe even most. But my limited experience is that whatever I buy will need a little (or a lot of)work before it can be relied upon fully.


Other people have been more successful.

Charles

Well you can bet on one thing, if Winchester does anything in 375 or better it won't be purchased for $1000 or less! Work or not,retain and function, chances are pretty good one will work if in a standard cartridge. But then again, it's more than a $1000 gun, so it should work. Regardless of what it is it must be put thru the ringer before going to the field!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
..... (Although we all know .375 isn't a true big bore). I would never part with this rifle unless I was starving.

jetdrvr,

Since you own an accurate 375....very unlikely that you will ever end up starving

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Charles

Well you can bet on one thing, if Winchester does anything in 375 or better it won't be purchased for $1000 or less! Work or not,retain and function, chances are pretty good one will work if in a standard cartridge. But then again, it's more than a $1000 gun, so it should work. Regardless of what it is it must be put thru the ringer before going to the field!

Michael

That's why I had the +/-. They will no doubt be a little more than the CZs if and when they show up, but if they are closer to $2000 than $1000 we will expect much more from them.

Edit: I am talking about "standard" big bore rounds here, not the .404 mentioned above.

The reason for the $$$ is that for enough money you can get a rifle that usually does work out of the box, like the ever-popular Blaser.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I just don't have any in's at Winchester anymore.

Michael,

Their website is a pita also for trying to find out anything...no contact point except an 800 number to customer service. I did notice however that any search for "custom shop" brings up their "trophy room" and you hold 19 of the first 20 listed.

Perhaps though you don't know anyone that you'd be sufficiently infamous to actually get to speak to someone other than customer service about custom shop rifles.

Charles

If I had to take a guess and that's all it would be, I would say IF and when Winchester puts out the big bores again, standards, 416 Rem-375-458s then I venture to say around $1500 or so. Could be wrong, but that's how I got it figured. And if the quality is right, then $1500 is not bad, but I would expect it to have no issues in standard cartridges.

Nah, won't be a 404 as much as I would wish for one. Now mind you, not that interested in 404, but I could use that action for sure! I would be more pleased if they started doing the RUM cartridges!!!!!!

Blaser? What in the hell is that? Better stay behind that couch!

Michael

I imagine you are correct on the pricing, but would not be surpised to see it even higher. If and when, of course.

Well if I come up with a number I will call and raise hell with someone?

I have not been to the web site in so long, I did not know they had changed it yet. Just come from there and it has changed big. Not much for info on nothing worth a hoot! I will check into some things and see what I see!

M

I called them today and spoke to Sherry??? It is official,Winchester will have available the "Safari Express" this new year in 375,416 and 458WM.The retail price will be $1279.00 and it will have their new trigger.They are looking forward to opeing the custom shop but don't have a date for that.I tried to feed some of the new Hornady solids in both my Rugers this morning and both failed to feed a few.It does feed the Aframes and all Woodleigh jacketed bullets without an issue.Although the Ruger has issues with flat nose solids,it gets very good marks in everything else.I still consider my Rugers as little gems.The way the rifle balances and points is king.The trigger,safety,sights,barrel,are fantastic.Instead of waiting on Winchester,it may be a better idea to go with a wildcat cartridge on a Ruger rifle or action.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
..... (Although we all know .375 isn't a true big bore). I would never part with this rifle unless I was starving.

jetdrvr,

Since you own an accurate 375....very unlikely that you will ever end up starving