416 rem or 416 taylor

09 April 2005, 01:52

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
... and I doubt any 404 owners (which is funny, 404 is a techincal code for "not found") have either

jeffe

Ohh, this is the thread that just keeps on giving...thanks jeffe.

I needed a pick-me-up.

I haven't ever thought of that, but you are right....I've never, ever seen any factory loaded 404 ammo in Canada, other than collector stuff at Gun Shows.

[Note - I just checked the mail order catalogues for the two biggest wholesale distributors of sporting goods in Canada...neither of them carry ammo for the 9.3x62, 404 Jeffrey, or even the 458 Lott....they might as well be wildcats in this country!]

I am curious if you'd have a chance of finding 404 Jeffrey ammo in Africa if your handloads went missing with your luggage? I am asking this seriously....is it common in sporting goods stores in Africa???

Cheers,
Canuck

09 April 2005, 01:58

jeffeosso

416 taylor, in a blr, loaded with matchkings!!!

jeffe

09 April 2005, 02:11

ACRecurve

You have to turn the MK's around backwards in the case if you are using them in a lever rifle!

09 April 2005, 02:17

Will

Backwards is probably the only use for Sierra bullets.

Jeffe,

Hmmm....a Taylor for 250 bucks. I'll send an action and a check, you send me back a working Taylor?

-------------------------------
Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.
---------------------------------------
and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR
_________________________

"Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped.
“Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped.

red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com
_________________________

If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go.

09 April 2005, 02:21

Will

I just made (so to speak) a drop belly floorplate for the Taylor, so it will hold four down. A plastic version that could be used by a machinist to make a steel version.

Any suggestions for such a person?

I'd throw in a box of MK bullets.

09 April 2005, 02:26

Con

I may get a 416Taylor built onto a ZG47 because I want 10.75 ballistics without the crap involved in finding reamers, importing brass, custom dies etc... If the 404J made its reputation at a lazy 2100fps and low pressures, what's wrong with a 416Taylor at the same level? Likewise if the 458WM is an African dud because of high pressures to achieve 2100fps with the 500gr, then why are we asking the 10.75 to match modern 404J ballistics and then calling it an African star? Back to the original topic, 416Taylor or 416Rem, on a magnum length action I vote 416Rem.
Cheers...
Con

09 April 2005, 02:41

J D

Bwana-be I agree with you on the throat being cut to long. The rep at montana rifle co said I should still be able to get under Moa with it.( the rep who sold it to me promised 1/2 moa but is no longer there)
Their reamers are min sami spec. After my next trip to the range I will know if he is full of BS or not. I found a 14" twist In #5 tapor by Shilen for $154.00.My smith should have it done and on the way back at the end of next week.I will let you know how it turns out.

J D

09 April 2005, 02:44

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Backwards is probably the only use for Sierra bullets.

Jeffe,

Hmmm....a Taylor for 250 bucks. I'll send an action and a check, you send me back a working Taylor?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=156254

109 for the barrel

send the right action (that requires headspacing and bluing) to a smith and it should be that... we'd send it back with black oxide...

jeffe

09 April 2005, 02:49

Atkinson

I will also take a Taylor at #250, then I will run a 416 Rem in it and lengthen the existing box and have a $350 416 Remington....that hold the same number of rounds as the Taylor I might add...

So Canooke what say you about that...all this cockamamie excuses you have come up with along with a mirage of misquotes and what ifs...

BTW, I would never recommend a 10.75x68 to anyone, never have, all I have done is state that I like it to play with..Hope thats Ok, same for the 416 Taylor, just don't try and justify it....

09 April 2005, 04:02

Atkinson

Cunnuck, Will et al,

I WILL DEFEND WITH MY VERY LIFE YOUR RIGHT TO YOUR OPINNION!!!!!!!!!!

thats the cowboy way you see!

09 April 2005, 04:26

Canuck

quote:
So Canooke what say you about that...all this cockamamie excuses you have come up with along with a mirage of misquotes and what ifs...

quote:
BTW, I would never recommend a 10.75x68 to anyone, never have,

I've moved on to the 404 J now.

Canuck

09 April 2005, 04:26

<allen day>

I'm siding with Ray on this one all the way.

I can't figure out where all of the weight-savings, etc., is coming from with the Taylor. Mostly, the stated advantages lie in the realm of imagination. Come to think of it, that's true of most wildcat endeavors. Theory counts for more than net reality.

Use a Model 70 action, for example, and the receiver is exactly the same length with the .416 Rem. as with the Taylor, so the basic receiver comes with the same amount of material in terms of mass. There will be more material in the magazine box and follower with the Remington, but more material will have been machined away in the receiver's loading port area to properly accomodate the longer cartridge in the case of the .416 Rem., so these differences cancel each other out.

Barrel contour, stock, scope, mounts, etc. will all be comparable between a rifle in .416 Rem. as well as .416 Taylor. So the only real difference between the two is in the weight of the ammunition. Of course, it this area the Taylor cartridges are lighter, but we're talking fractions of an ounce per cartridge with bullets of the same weight.

We're really splitting pubic hairs with all of the "lighter weight"/"shorter bolt-throw" hoopla. I doubt that the negligable savings are worth it. Better to go to the gym, lose five pounds off your a$$, and go with the standard factory cartridge. You guys act like you're getting sheep rifles built -- not flatlander-type African rifles to be used on DG.

Down the line, resale value will be better as well with the .416 Rem..........

AD

09 April 2005, 04:34

jorge

Ignorance abounds about covers it. Regarding the belt and it's supposed anti-extraction predilection, the 300 H&H, arguably THE most easy feeding/extracting cartridge extant HAS A BELT. Second, the 300 Wetherby came BEFORE the 300 Win Mag, only the H&H is older and the Weatherby DID start the decline of the H&H, and the 300 Winnie ( another belted cartridge) outsells them ALL combined. NOw back to the topic at hand, if you hunt africa with a wildcat, you ought to have your head examined. jorge

09 April 2005, 05:21

Will

Boy, you try to help somebody and all you get is snipers.

At least if these posts are going to be irrelevant and boring, they could at least be entertaining.

How did we ever go hunting before AR?

09 April 2005, 05:32

Canuck

quote:
if you hunt africa with a wildcat, you ought to have your head examined.

jorge, to be strictly accurate, I think that the arguement you guys are really trying to make is..."if you hunt in Africa with a cartridge without a matching headstamp, or with a cartridge for which ammo can't be readily supplied in Africa (or replaced by an alternate cartridge which can be fired in the same rifle), you should have your head examined.".

The point I (and jeffe) have been making is that all wildcats are not equal. Wildcats that have headstamped brass available are absolutely no different, practically speaking, than "obscure" factory loadings that are not available off the shelf in Africa. AND, one should not poo-poo said wildcat on one hand, and advocate an "obscure" factory chambering on the other (a classic non-sequitur).

For the record, and in case I have inadvertantly offended anyone, my involvement in this has been all in fun. I have made my point, and shall not belabor it.

Cheers,
Canuck

09 April 2005, 05:41

Will

When was it decided that all this ammo gets lost? Never lost any and never heard of any being lost. Maybe a day or two late, but not lost.

09 April 2005, 05:42

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I WILL DEFEND WITH MY VERY LIFE YOUR RIGHT TO YOUR OPINNION!!!!!!!!!! thats the cowboy way you see!

Being a died-in-the-wool redneck from the backwoods of Canada, I feel just the same, Ray. I would defend with my very life your right to your opinion, no matter how wrong you are.

Cheers,
Canuck

09 April 2005, 06:09

p dog shooter

I for one can not see the differants to some cailbers like the dakotas or when the weatherbys cals were first out or the A squares ect. Then some of the popular wildcats Sure they had someone making ammo for them but are they or were they readly availble in out of the way hunting places.

So shoot what you want take what you want and enjoy yourself.

09 April 2005, 06:29

jorge

Canuck: Point well taken so I'll modify my statement to include obscure calibers

jorge

09 April 2005, 07:06

Marc_Stokeld

the point I was making had nothing to do with ammo. I thad to do with ballistics and rifle weight. It is no different that sticking a .308 in a M98 action istead of a .30-06. The rifles will weigh the same. They will be just as "trim." THe .308 will have less power. It will in no way be superior to, and in some ways will be inferior to the .30-06. Had this comaprison been made, then I doubt if folks would have gotten their collective panties in a wad.

The Whitworth is already set up to take the .416 Remington. It will cost exactly nothing extra to go to the Rem over the Taylor. And the Taylor oculd actually take more work given the fact that the mag is Rem. length already.

09 April 2005, 07:20

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:

Being a died-in-the-wool redneck from the backwoods of Canada,

dyed-in-the-wool

ADJECTIVE: Thoroughgoing; out-and-out.

09 April 2005, 16:27

tiggertate

500, that far north rednecks literally die "in the wool".. Besides, who wants to say "died in the Gortex"?

10 April 2005, 03:50

Atkinson

Cunnuckie, is died in the wool, meaning brain dead in this instance! Sorry I couldn't let that one pass!

Will,
I thouht I was being entertaining, do I need to try harder, or do you expect me to take all this stuff seriously..I'll try harder to be funny for you next time, sorry

10 April 2005, 04:53

Will

Ray,

You know and I know that most of this stuff is hooey. We just need to remind ourselves of that sometimes, and not take it too seriously.

10 April 2005, 05:07

sambubba

I guess Warren Page, Elmer Keith, John Buhmiller, Charles Askins and many others who have toted wildcats to Africa were too inexperienced and total idiots. How they managed to survive is a miracle...

10 April 2005, 05:39

Ropes

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
I just made (so to speak) a drop belly floorplate for the Taylor, so it will hold four down. A plastic version that could be used by a machinist to make a steel version.

Just about any good Wire EDM machine shop should be able to this - EDM is not cheap but it beautiful when run correctly

10 April 2005, 08:24

Hansel

Not to disparage any one individual. As I read some of the above posts by the purists, â€œexpertsâ€, and dare I say â€œelitistsâ€ who speak in fake English accents. I realize that I will never be a true â€œhunterâ€ no matter how many animals I slay for the following reasons:
1. I do not hunt with a .404 Jeffery DGR, or a hand built $10,000 work of art with African pedigree and papers to match; stocked in Bastone Walnut with a 20 coat hand-rubbed oil finish. Instead more often than not I hunt with simple rifles like my Mark X based .416 Taylor with Peep sights and a 22in. barrel, it is compact and I am not afraid to ding it up.
2. I do not hunt with a pre 64 Winchester model 70, or a Mauser with an original Obendorf action. I choose to use as my field guns, weapons based on pitiful CZ 550 and Mark X actions. How they feed; and donâ€™t blow up each time I pull the trigger only the gods know.
3. I donâ€™t use hand-turned Naval Bronze Premium bullets that cost $1.88 apiece. Instead, I use cheap Speer 350gr.and Barnes 300, 350 and 400gr. bullets. Hardly up to the standards of the magical killing .404 Jeffery loaded with a 400gr. Solid at a magical killing velocity of 2,150 ft/sec. (BTW. My Taylor will only push a 400 gr. bullet at 2,315 ft/sec from its 22 in barrel).
4. I donâ€™t own a Ziess, Kahales, Schmidt and Bender, or even a Leopold scope. I use a Redfield; or more often than not, a Williamsâ€™s peep sight on my Taylor.
5. I donâ€™t wear Safari clothing when I hunt! In fact I donâ€™t even own a pair of Buffalo hide boots, or shooting sticks. Shockingly, I confess to not owning a Pith hat or a broad brimmed bush hat. I tend to dress comfortably for the season, terrain, and climate.
However, I have been blessed to have hunted, lo these many years, game animals far dumber, and less resilient than those hunted by some members of the board. Only this could explain my success in hunting over the years, and the animalsâ€™ willingness to die in front of my front sights. This however does not change the fact that as I stand in your collective shadows; I am left chanting â€œIâ€™m not worthyâ€ while I bow to your presence.

10 April 2005, 08:37

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Ray,

You know and I know that most of this stuff is hooey. We just need to remind ourselves of that sometimes, and not take it too seriously.

Hansel,
I see you have taken Will's advice to heart. Me too. I dig the Yugoslav Mark X's, CZ's, and, I hesitate to say

... (whisper) My .416 Taylor is a Ruger ... (end whisper).

10 April 2005, 09:11

sambubba

Great post Hansel. Too often I see the so called "experts" speaking about adding an animal to their collection and so little about hunting and the experience of that itself. You don't have to shoot a Biesen or Echols showpiece to enhance the thrill of the hunt. If the sense of anticipation and the thrill of the hunt is not there, you should not be hunting.

10 April 2005, 10:04

waterrat

YOU 416ER'S SURE ARE A QUARRELSOME LOTT. bUILD A 425 eXPRESS AND DEFY THEM ALL.

10 April 2005, 11:04

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Hansel:
Not to disparage any one individual. As I read some of the above posts by the purists, â€œexpertsâ€, and dare I say â€œelitistsâ€ who speak in fake English accents. I realize that I will never be a true â€œhunterâ€ no matter how many animals I slay for the following reasons:
1. I do not hunt with a .404 Jeffery DGR, or a hand built $10,000 work of art with African pedigree and papers to match; stocked in Bastone Walnut with a 20 coat hand-rubbed oil finish. Instead more often than not I hunt with simple rifles like my Mark X based .416 Taylor with Peep sights and a 22in. barrel, it is compact and I am not afraid to ding it up.
2. I do not hunt with a pre 64 Winchester model 70, or a Mauser with an original Obendorf action. I choose to use as my field guns, weapons based on pitiful CZ 550 and Mark X actions. How they feed; and donâ€™t blow up each time I pull the trigger only the gods know.
3. I donâ€™t use hand-turned Naval Bronze Premium bullets that cost $1.88 apiece. Instead, I use cheap Speer 350gr.and Barnes 300, 350 and 400gr. bullets. Hardly up to the standards of the magical killing .404 Jeffery loaded with a 400gr. Solid at a magical killing velocity of 2,150 ft/sec. (BTW. My Taylor will only push a 400 gr. bullet at 2,315 ft/sec from its 22 in barrel).
4. I donâ€™t own a Ziess, Kahales, Schmidt and Bender, or even a Leopold scope. I use a Redfield; or more often than not, a Williamsâ€™s peep sight on my Taylor.
5. I donâ€™t wear Safari clothing when I hunt! In fact I donâ€™t even own a pair of Buffalo hide boots, or shooting sticks. Shockingly, I confess to not owning a Pith hat or a broad brimmed bush hat. I tend to dress comfortably for the season, terrain, and climate.
However, I have been blessed to have hunted, lo these many years, game animals far dumber, and less resilient than those hunted by some members of the board. Only this could explain my success in hunting over the years, and the animalsâ€™ willingness to die in front of my front sights. This however does not change the fact that as I stand in your collective shadows; I am left chanting â€œIâ€™m not worthyâ€ while I bow to your presence.

To each his own, as caliber choice seems to be a very personal thing, with subtle differences being very important to some of us.

11 April 2005, 20:19

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:

Being a died-in-the-wool redneck from the backwoods of Canada,

dyed-in-the-wool

ADJECTIVE: Thoroughgoing; out-and-out.

I used the Canadian spelling...yah, that's it...

That's what I get for typing to fast! Thanks for the free correction 500grains. I usually have to pay to get a lawyer to check my spelling/grammar.

Cheers,
Canuck

12 April 2005, 06:41

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:
quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by Canuck:

Being a died-in-the-wool redneck from the backwoods of Canada,

dyed-in-the-wool

ADJECTIVE: Thoroughgoing; out-and-out.

I used the Canadian spelling...yah, that's it...

That's what I get for typing to fast! Thanks for the free correction 500grains. I usually have to pay to get a lawyer to check my spelling/grammar.

Cheers,
Canuck

I just want you to get used to the stricter rules that will be applied once the States take you guys over.

12 April 2005, 23:21

Atkinson

SAmBubba,
Unfortunatly all those gun scribes you mentioned had very little African experience..Charlie shot a lot of plainsgame for several years running and Elmer shot a few elephants...There are seveal folks on this board that have hunted a good deal more than your chosen experts, self included...You need to start reading Man Magnum, Hartari times, thats where the real African gun scribes hang out, and a few of them like Ganyana post regularly here on AR, along with a number of PHs!

12 April 2005, 23:56

Sabot

Good grief! You guys are like Congress farting around with social security. Clean up the 375 H&H chamber with a 375 RUM reamer for $75 and go hunting.

The 416 Taylor is a fine round...the 416 Rem is better and the 375 RUM is BEST in this situation from a cost and flexibility perspective. A 350 grain Woodleigh in a 375 RUM at 2700 fps vs a 400 gr anyting in the 416s is a toss up vs DG. For ALLother applications the RUM is better, so what's the issue?

13 April 2005, 00:55

500grains

quote:
Originally posted by Sabot:

A 350 grain Woodleigh in a 375 RUM at 2700 fps vs a 400 gr anyting in the 416s is a toss up vs DG. For ALLother applications the RUM is better, so what's the issue?

Actually there are quite a few people who think 2700 fps is too fast for DG, and that better results are to be had between 2100 fps and 2400 fps. And there are people who believe that a larger cross sectional area is better, so in their eyes a .416 will always be better than a .375.

13 April 2005, 01:04

sambubba

Ray, my point was they used wildcat cartridges and did not have any trouble. This was not meant to be a pissing match.

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
SAmBubba,
Unfortunatly all those gun scribes you mentioned had very little African experience..Charlie shot a lot of plainsgame for several years running and Elmer shot a few elephants...There are seveal folks on this board that have hunted a good deal more than your chosen experts, self included...You need to start reading Man Magnum, Hartari times, thats where the real African gun scribes hang out, and a few of them like Ganyana post regularly here on AR, along with a number of PHs!

13 April 2005, 02:00

oldun

Hi Guys,
No one has mentioned that the Taylor came along before the Remington, when the Rigby ammo was hard to get. It was one mans idear of an easy to put together wild cat in a short action, in a proven calibre. That seems ok to me, BUT, I would not buy one.

13 April 2005, 07:42

Sabot

quote:
Originally posted by 500grains:
quote:
Originally posted by Sabot:

A 350 grain Woodleigh in a 375 RUM at 2700 fps vs a 400 gr anyting in the 416s is a toss up vs DG. For ALLother applications the RUM is better, so what's the issue?

Actually there are quite a few people who think 2700 fps is too fast for DG, and that better results are to be had between 2100 fps and 2400 fps. And there are people who believe that a larger cross sectional area is better, so in their eyes a .416 will always be better than a .375.

You make a good point and I agree up to a point. However, my feeling is that once you get to a sectional density that exceeds .350 or so and use a good tough bullet, the extra 300 fps and 11% increase in diameter are not a big factor...at least not enough to spend a lot of extra money!