Looking to purchase my first big bore, until I can get back to Africa (last time was due to work so no rifle allowed) It will be used to hunt the normal Lower 48 4 legged critters. I like short barrels, easier to carry through thick brush and are quicker to bring to bear.

I have been looking at the CZ 550 in both calibers (458 Lott and 416 Rigby) I am leaning towards the Lott for a couple reasons, one being able to use 458 WM for practice and non DG hunting. I have been reading a lot of the posts here and other forums and think my concerns are for the most part unfounded but I am turning to you Gentlemen to confirm it.

Is the amount of velocity loss going from a 25" to a 21" barrel worth worrying about?

Also I had thought about the Ruger Guide gun in 416 Ruger, since the caliber is engineered for the shorter barrel it might be a good compromise but I like the 5 rnd magazine of the CZ.

Anyway what say the forum?

I would have thought a short bolt gun that is easy to handle would be chambered in a B&M cartridge like Michael does. I have (edited) NO experience with those but I do have a CZ 416 Rigby & I would NEVER consider a short barrel for that cartridge / rifle.

I really love my rifle & it shoots very well. Perfect balance too. Easy to shoot off hand. I've shot feral goats out to 125 meters off hand.

With today's faster burning powders, I'd think you could find a powder that would keep velocity loss to a minimum. The old rule of thumb was around 40 - 50fps per inch but I don't believe that would apply anymore.

In my CZ550 .458WM I lost around 50fps from lopping my barrel from 25" to 21".
Using cheap Winchester 510gr factory ammo it chrono'd (5 mtrs from the muzzle) 1980fps with the 25" and 1930" after the chop.
When I tried some 300gr reloads I got the same result, 2650fps with the 25" and 2600fps after the chop.
I lost around 12fps for every inch.

BTW, with good reloads the WM is fine for DG too.

Typically between 2000 to 2500 fps velocity you lose 20 fps per inch. This, as has been mentioned, can be mitigated by using faster powders to some degree

Using Lott ammunition, a 21" barreled rifle will still turn in more than adequate performance on elephant.

I know this is fact since the 458wm turns in more than adequate performance and so does the original DG smokeless powder round the 450NE and even with a 21" barrel a Lott will turn in greater velocity with the same bullets.

This would remain true even if actual velocity loss were 20-50fps per inch.

JPK

An African pro hunter mate of mine has a 21" 458Lott Brno which works fine but does have some extra muzzle blast. To minimise this blast I prefer 23" barrels. This will also help to achive the classic 2150fps Mv with lees pressure even with the Winchester magnum.

My Brno 602ZKK in 375H&H is 21" as is my CZ550 416Rigby. Accuracy is normal with both,meaning no appreciable change after cutting. Both are under 1" consistent. I have never checked velocity on any load. I killed my last Elephant on my final safari with the 416Rigby. No complaints in any way. I also have a 458WinMag that is on an 03A3 action and has a 16 1/2" barrel. It was built by A & M probably in the late 50's. I prefer the handling of the short barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I also have a 458WinMag that is on an 03A3 action and has a 16 1/2" barrel. It was built by A & M probably in the late 50's. I prefer the handling of the short barrels.

Wow, that must be a beast to shoot.. you got any pics?

As said earlier, I lost 50fps with shortening my .458WM from 25" to 21". Now with top reloads and using ADI AR2206H guys down here are getting 2200fps with the 500gr projectile (in a 24" barrel) and staying under pressure.
Even though I'll be using 420gr NonCons in mine, I have absolutely no doubt I could still get 2150fps in my WM with the 500's with the 21" and stay under pressure. No doubt at all.
With the Lott, you can add about 100fps to that so you should still get easily over 2200fps with the 500's... which is enough for anything.
You'll be fine with the 21".

Some very good news:

The 416Rigby is underloaded far below its true capacity in standard reloading manuals. That means that a 416 could be shortened and then handloaded to velocities that are higher than the original loads in longer barrels!
E.g. If the original was shooting a 350 grain .416" TTSX at 2575fps in a 25" barrel, then after cutting down to a 21" barrel I would recommend going to a faster powder, maybe H4895, and loading to 2600-2650fps ! ! !
Of course, a 416Ruger can be loaded to this level, too, at least 2575-2600fps in a 20" barrel.

So it is win, win, win.

I have a 416R with a 20.5" barrel. Whole rig with NF 2.5-10 weighs under 8#. I have had no trouble achieving 2400fps. with 400gr. bullets and 2600+ with 350's. I used mine in Africa on baboon, zebra, and eland. Here I have used it on coyotes and pigs. It's a pleasure to carry and gets the job done every time. I'm not a fan of belts on brass, so would encourage you to go with one of the R's, Rigby or Ruger. Good luck.

I like longer barrels myself, but like hearing specifics on velocities with chopped barrels. I've got one or two of those too.

Barrel length is definitely a personal preference. I have a BDL in 270 (22" barrel) I gave my youngest that I loved (he loves it now that I get 2900 fps with a 150g Partition without pushing even a little bit), I have a 500 Jeffery with a 24" barrel (570g bullet at 2300 fps) and a 270 Weatherby with a 26" barrel (150g Partition 3300 fps). The 26" barrel is a bit too much in the dark timber, the 24" barrel for me meets my Goldilocks criteria of "just right" for both out in the open and climbing over dead falls jump shooting elk in the thick stuff. To each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by lshopper:
I have a 416R with a 20.5" barrel. Whole rig with NF 2.5-10 weighs under 8#. I have had no trouble achieving 2400fps. with 400gr. bullets and 2600+ with 350's. I used mine in Africa on baboon, zebra, and eland. Here I have used it on coyotes and pigs. It's a pleasure to carry and gets the job done every time. I'm not a fan of belts on brass, so would encourage you to go with one of the R's, Rigby or Ruger. Good luck.

Doesn't Remington start with an R?

I know a bloke who has shortened his CZ550 416Rigby to 21". It still kills DG with ease and handles like a charm. I am thinking of shortning my Rigby's barrel down to 23". This will make it easier to carry and use in jess etc.

Sean,

I did not include Remington because that round has a belt. I don't like them, so that's why I didn't include it. No offense meant to those that use cartridges that have them, I just always viewed them as unnecessary and tend to gravitate toward any comparable cartridge that does not have one.

Lance

quote:

Originally posted by lshopper:
Sean,

I did not include Remington because that round has a belt. I don't like them, so that's why I didn't include it. No offense meant to those that use cartridges that have them, I just always viewed them as unnecessary and tend to gravitate toward any comparable cartridge that does not have one.

Lance

lance,

Was just teasing because Remington does start with an R.



My personal favorite and main weapon is a 416 B&M, Based on the RUM case--hence , no belt.

I can`t see why anyone would have an issue with a 24 inch barrel in any type of cover.It just does not happen IMO- unless you are someone who has issues with everything.

Sean,

I am about to join the B&M club myself. Have all the parts except for the .458 barrel. I have a buddy with 2 of them and they are too much fun.

Shootaway,

When you are bending or crawling trying to find an animal that is trying to find you, that extra 4"s can seem like a foot. Absolutely no need for more than 20" on a DG bolt gun that is meant for work. If balance is the issue, make the barrel heavier. I know all the great names made/still make there DG bolt guns with 24" tubes, but I suspect it has more to do with aesthetics than functionality. With todays abundance of more appropriate powder and bullet choices, the extra 4"s is no longer needed for adequate performance. I think Ruger hit this particular nail squarely on the head.

But, as one of the other member's here tagline says,"just my .02 cents"

Lance

I want that extra 100fps@500grs.I also feel that a 24 inch barrel aims better.I have hunted grouse and woodcock in thick Quebec swamps where the only way forward was to push the bush with my back while walking backwards.I never felt my 26 or 28 inch shotgun barrels were too long and when the woodcock would flush I was quick enough to shoot it.BTW,if you were serious about close quarter hunting you would not be looking at that brand you mention but looking at a double rifle instead.Bolt actions were meant for sniping not for close quarter hunting.

I get 2300fps @500gr from my 20" 500MDM. Do you really think I need more velocity for it to be effective?

As far as accuracy goes, it is basically a one hole gun for 3 shots @50 yards. Do you think it needs to be even more accurate for DG?

I'd submit that a 26" shotgun has less overall length than a 20" bolt rifle with an action.

Please explain why you think bolt action rifles are not meant for close quarter hunting, also please define your understanding of close quarter hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by lshopper:
I know all the great names made/still make there DG bolt guns with 24" tubes, but I suspect it has more to do with aesthetics than functionality.

Those great names understand that life is too short to hunt with ugly rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:
I get 2300fps @500gr from my 20" 500MDM. Do you really think I need more velocity for it to be effective?

As far as accuracy goes, it is basically a one hole gun for 3 shots @50 yards. Do you think it needs to be even more accurate for DG?

I'd submit that a 26" shotgun has less overall length than a 20" bolt rifle with an action.

Please explain why you think bolt action rifles are not meant for close quarter hunting, also please define your understanding of close quarter hunting.

Why should I go up to a cartridge with more recoil to get the same velocity as I would get with a longer barrel? I was saying that the rifle could be aimed more accurately with a 24 inch barrel.My shotguns were not short they were semi-autos and longer than my rifles.The answer to your last question is obvious and does not need any explanation.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by lshopper:
I know all the great names made/still make there DG bolt guns with 24" tubes, but I suspect it has more to do with aesthetics than functionality.

Those great names understand that life is too short to hunt with ugly rifles.

Yea!

Want a shorter big bore? Get a double and loose the action length!

Depending on the action, 24" or 26" barrels in the length of a 20" awkward looking mistake.

Also, I find myself in the unique instance of agreeing with Shooaway. I haven't had issues with the magnum length action plus 23" barrel of my 375H&H in Africa.

JPK

I lost 71 FPS going from 25" to 22". WELL worth it. CZ 458 Lott

The Lott and the Rigby have velocity to spare, so your good to chop away. Blast and recoil can be somewhat intimidating to all but the bravest of souls, and a scattering of BS'ers.