It seams that I keep missing good deals on doubles. I recently located a 460-31/4" made in europe. It is a sidelock,chopper lump barresl---essentially the rough equivalent of a great Brittish double and at a great price. The lockworks are exquisite. It has been restocked and therefore cutting it to my short LOP will not hurt. If it is sound, do you think this may be a way to go? I have been told that I should stay with the british rifles as they will be better made and easier to resell.?
lb404

The only non-British doubles I have any experience with are German and Austrian ones. They invariably have good steel, (Krupp Luftstahl) and were correctly rgulated for the load shown under the barrels. Some were also nicely engraved, but probably not as well decorated as the British. By and large, these guns were well worth the money, usually a lot less than comparable British guns. Also, often available in smaller calibers than the British dangerous game guns.

I have used many brands. While the Holland and Holland Royal Ejector is a wonderful piece, I will own one, in hunting I really cannot see any advantage to the British guns over any thing else. Look at Kreighoff and Chapuis the quality is wonderful. Remember there were and are many non British people who have worked for the Best Quality British Gun Houses in the past. Haartman and Weiss both worked for Purdey if memory serves me.

If you wnat look at the PH I or the Big Five Kreighoff, make sure you buy a boxlock

As elegant as the British doubles are and even considering their nostalgic value, I would rather own a new rifle made from better steel--especially if it was built to fit me.
Good Hunting,

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Andy Cooper

[This message has been edited by ACRecurve (edited 04-10-2002).]

Merkel
Searcy
Krieghoff

These are the great buys. They are all shooters.

The Merkel barrels are stamped/engraved with "Krupp Steel." Nothing puny or poor about a Merkel 140 except that they only offer it in the most popular caliber of all time (470 Nitro Express) and then some other silly cartridges.

Searcy: great AMERICAN double guns in great rimmed cartridges. I want a stainless synthetic in 500 NE.

Krieghoff: different mechanism compared to tradition, but start with one of them and stick with them and never look back.

You got to have money to burn or just be investing in collector guns to consider the H&H Royals, etc.

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 04-10-2002).]

I'm due to receive my Searcy 470NE before too long. I'll let you know.

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RC

DaggaRon - AMEN - you are so right!

Vasa

Don't forget Champlian

The modern guns that I like are the Searcy, William Douglas and Merkel (Merkel: only in 470) not in 416 Rigby and 375 H&H, these puppies are just to hot for double rifles and doubles don't fare well with rimless rounds IMO...

I think the Searcy is as good as any English gun for hunting...

I shoot a WJ Jeffery English rifle in 400 N.E. but if I ever buy another double it will be a Searcy.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

How about Heym? They are expensive, but they will make it in any caliber you might want .450, .470, .500, and up ...

H

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FN-Browning/Belgium still handmakes O/U rifles, based on a not hollowed out and specially heat treated 20 ga B25 receivers. I've got one in 9,3x74R, engraved and signed by J. Baerten, master engraver and former head of FN's engraving dept.

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Andr�

I don't know if anyone has done any comparative evaluation of double guns from various countries, but if I remember, many years ago, The American Rifleman did a comparison test of a Purdey best quality shotgun and a Winchester Model 21 and found that the Winchester stayed tighter after some huge number of rounds had been shot through both. I wouldn't be surprised if double rifles from any of the Ferlach makers, from Suhl or from Belgium were every bit as good as British guns, but the country that I live in has mostly British guns available and those, too, are at least 50 years old or older. With newer steels and CNC machining etc it should be easily possible for any country to make guns as good as the best that the British have to offer if they put in equal effort. It's hard to believe that any nation could have a monopoly on quality forever!

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Mehul Kamdar

The double rifle I am refering to is either french or belgium. It is a sidelock 450-3.25 with all the embellishments. It has been restocked in good french walnut. It is about 10.5 lbs.The lockworks are as fine as any I have ever seen! Priced very right. What do you think?
lb404

Mehul,

How much do the old double rifles go for in India? I have friends there, as well as friends & relatives in Pakistan. I've thought about buying and trying to export one.

Todd

//

Hi Todd, you can get all sorts of old guns in India from blackpowder rifles to the pre-war nitro expresses in varying conditions. I have seen excellent guns with dealers like the Bombay Gun House at Mumbai (formerly Bombay) and I am told that gun dealers at Kanpur often have some good pieces available.However, there is a problem with exporting from India in that you need an antiques license to export anything that is more than 90 years old and most gun dealers are not likely to have either the money or the political connections to get one of these. I could send you some addresses if you like and you could speak to them if you like. Prices quoted are usually high by Indian standards (Indian Rupees 150000 and up - US $ 3000 or so) but you can usually bargain your way to less than half the quoted price because we have ridiculous laws that prohibit the ownership of guns with a caliber larger than 8mm at the moment. Perhaps Pakistan would have better pieces available because from what I understand, they are a more gun friendly nation, though things have begun to change drastically over there post Sep 11. Please e-mail me if you want anything from my end. I could put you in touch with some good dealers in India and you could then take your chances with them. Good luck.

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Mehul Kamdar

All posts are basically true, but for one small overlooked point and that is "RESALE VALUE" and I consider that all important as I am prone to sell or trade about anything. I will take an English gun any day.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ah ha! So that is why the rich guys buy the Holland and Holland double rifles! Takes money to make money, eh? But for this to work requires that "the greater fool than I" be found to sell your collector item to. Mean time, what about something to shoot and play with? Something rugged and functional in the field, that a scratch or ding is not so worrisome on?

Is that why those H&H buyers call the Merkel, Searcy, and Krieghoff the "Smirkel, Sissy, and Kickoff?" Just jealous because they are afraid to drag their doubles on a safari?

Well, if someone wanted to give me an H&H double rifle, I wouldn't refuse the offer.

Hey, is the Holland and Holland a Dutch double?

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RAB

lb404,

If it's a bargin in .450, make sure it is nitro proofed on the barrel flats. It should say ".450 EX, Cordite, 480gr MAX, or something to that effect.

The europeans make great guns. See if you can test fire it to make sure it's still in regulation. Restocking only hurts when you go to sell...

Greg

PS. It was good to meet you in Tulsa. Too bad I couldn't talk you out of that .404!

I wonder how long the fascination with British double rifles will last considering the amount of interest in this type of firearm - people who shoot regularly are bound to compare notes and the sooner it is seen that other countries have equally good (or probably even better) gunmaking skills as the British, would British guns continue to sell at a premium?

The situation seems to remind me of cars - time was when Rolls Royce was considered the "best car in the world", the British thought nothing of even selling the brand to BMW recently. No one in his right senses really considers a Rolls the world's best car anymore, and it is probably only a question of time before the same happens to British guns. As someone who has only seen and shot old British guns I cannot claim to be knowledgeable about anything other than them and there are definitely more people on this forum who have vast knowledge about guns that I might never ever be able to gain living as I do in India, but I cannot but help wonder how much longer the mystique of the British "best" gun will continue to enthrall those whose pockets are bigger than mine will ever be.

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Mehul Kamdar

OK, I heard an H&H story. This is true.

A guy went elephant hunting with his H&H double. The double stayed in its leather carrying case 20 miles per day until a suitable elephant was found. Then the H&H was removed from the case and loaded. The client walked up to the elephant, shot it, and placed the H&H back in its leather case.

I think the word "sissy" is more applicable to this situation.

Of course, a real man would carry a Searcy over his shoulder or ready at port.

"Smirkel, Sissy and Kickoff" were supposed to be from the view of the H&H snob. My bad.

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RAB

I recently took a Kreighoff 470 on a sambar hunt and found it to be a very well designed and comfortable rifle to shoot, I particually liked the saftey which actually decocks the rifle. The rifle was exceptionaly accurate and I was able to shoot several Kangaroos at over 80 yds on the run and the 470 seemed to be enough for these 90lb monsters!