Hawk bullets will make 1200grains bullets to the .600 Overkill (special order)
And my question is.. Is it possible to shoot so "long for caliber bullets" In the .600 OK??
Bad accuracy??
And what velocity can you expekt?

Any one that have used hawk bullets on game??
how did they worked?

//Overkill

Can only speak about the big bore bullets. We call them Hawk Grenades because they expand so violently. Good for plinking or load development and they will absolutely demolish thin skinned game but not for the serious high dollar big game hunt.

I have used Hawk bullets on game (twice). In a big bore, they will open up on medium game in instances where a Woodleigh is too hard to open up. For mooses, 1200 grain .620" Hawks probably will not open up at all.

OTOH, a .620 bullet doesn't need to. 300 Win fans would kill for a .620 hole all the way through a moose.

500grains, I'm going to shoot a mature Eland cow later this year with a 550 Mag 700 gr Hawk just to see. I bet it won't exit. Velocity will be in the 2350 range at not under 75 yds or over 150.

I know a .550 700gr hawk WILL open up in a 140# hog... and that's blow up like... well, what we call them

hawk-grenades...

2150 fps MV, ~30ft... hit 3/4" plywood, then didn't go 18 inches through ziplock bags of water.... jacket went one way, lead sprayed everywhere... and didn't even break the third water bag in a 2' partition.


They are better than cast bullets, if you are trying to shoot more than 5 in a row, though..


jeffe

I was witness to the test jeffe is talking about.........I have a differnt take.........I think the bullet got scared before it hit the plywood and lost its jacket before it hit the wood.........it had to, it was laying on the ground. ......I've never seen anything like it before.

Trigger,

2 weeks ago I saw a deer shot with a .435" 350 grain Hawk .035 jacket at 2500 fps muzzle velocity. 2 shots, both exited, no expansion.

I did a finishing shot to an elk with a .474 500 grain Hawk .035" jacket. It expanded.

I shot a 750 grain Hawk .065" jacket .585" Hawk into an elephant shoulder at 2250 fps. It turned inside out and only penetrated 18 inches.

All of mine are .035 jacket .550 diameter and that may be the difference. With that much frontal area expansion is almost cause by wind friction. You were brave to shoot an elephant with a Hawk unless it was darted first!

I have shot 5 deer with 300 grain .411s with a .035 jacket and had good expansion, all were broadside lung shots. 2200 fps. [80 yard shots]

Now my .416 with 300 grain and .035 jackets at 2500 are a different story! They took the near leg almost completely off. [deer] at 100 yds.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
All of mine are .035 jacket .550 diameter and that may be the difference. With that much frontal area expansion is almost cause by wind friction. You were brave to shoot an elephant with a Hawk unless it was darted first!

I am not that brave. It was dead first.

From what I saw when jeffe tested that Hawk grenade. I would not use them on a mad bunny.

Hog Killer

Doesn't Hawk make bullets of varying jacket thickness? I used what they call Deadsofts and they are just that, prone to blowing up. I had some 500 grain Deadsofts loaded for my .458 Lott, and shot a 100 lb hog with it. It exited hog number one, and took out hog number two standing behind it -- rather, the jacket exited hog number one and killed hog number two. They do come apart is basically what I am trying to say (hey, I'm only on my first cup of coffee) -- at least the Deadsofts do in my experience.

On hawks webiste they say that it will retain much of it´s orginal weight. And expand to over 2 times the orginal diamter.

500grains/
Do you sure mean that a 1200 grain hawk bullet in the .600 OK at 2000fps will not expand?
//Overkill

Yes, it will. Depending on a thousand different factors, especially game size. It is made of dead-soft annealed copper tubing and pure lead so it has no choice but to pankcake when it hits. The trouble comes when you over-drive them. And that can happen in a 600 OKH but if all you shoot is moose sized game it shouldn't matter. It will flatten the moose on the way to disintegrating. But then so will a big .620 cast bullet and won't come apart as easily.

Even if you hunt with something else, they are great practice bullets just because of the price.

quote:

Originally posted by Overkill from 500grains/
Do you sure mean that a 1200 grain hawk bullet in the .600 OK at 2000fps will not expand?
//Overkill

I don't think you will get close to 2000 fps from a 1200 grain Hawk because Hawk bullets are sticky and prone to pressure spikes.

And I don't think they will expand much or at all at the velocity you will actually get.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

I don't think you will get close to 2000 fps from a 1200 grain Hawk because Hawk bullets are sticky and prone to pressure spikes.

And I don't think they will expand much or at all at the velocity you will actually get.

Okay.. not on your case.. "sticky" isn't a reloading or swaging term... they are zero more prone to znything than any other unbonded copper tube bullet.. like the barnes original (which they only made to .585) ...

2000fps in a hawk (even a 450gr .065 .458 bullet) still has radical expansion on HOGS... BTDT

jeffe

Actually, they are more prone to pressure spikes than any other bullet I have used, and it seems to be due to the very soft/sticky pure copper jacket. I have noticed more erratic pressure and more instances of unexpectedly high pressure with Hawk bullets than with either Barnes originals or Barnes X (or any other bullet for that matter). So I would say they are prone to it. Consequently when I use Hawks I download them for safety.

Some other companies using pure copper have dealt with pressure by using driving bands on the exterior of the bullet.

Dan,
mechanically, there's no difference in a barnes original and a hawk. Pure copper is pure copper.. and, in either event, a poor idea.

i don't load them hot enough to have anything signifcant in pressure nor spikes, but they are shite for bullets

jeffe

In my .408 450/400 3 inch I find i have to back off 3 grains from my regular Woodleigh load to achive the same velocity with Hawk bullets.

I have attributed this to the softer Hawks bullets sealing the bore better?

Unless you use the thickest jacket and don't over drive them they are as Jeffe says, "Hawk Grenades"!

Jeff,

Actually, there is likely a difference in material properties between the copper used in the Barnes origninals and the Hawks, as the Hawk copper seems to be softer. Not all copper is created equal. Perhaps the Barnes are work hardened, or perhaps the Hawks are annealed for softness. Or maybe they just buy their copper from different suppliers.

Also, some Hawks exhibit a slight bulge at the base which may be intended to seal with old worn out bores, but which may increase pressure a bit.

Dan,
i'll suggest we disagree on hawks and their construction, and the relative properties of "pure copper"

i will state, however, (even though I actually dislike the bullets)

if 1/2 of the "issues" people say andy has with his bullets are true, then he wouldn't be in business a week


jeffe

.

Alf,

I think the difference is that some of the Hawks I have seen start out with the bulge, and it has to be swaged down as the bullet engraves the rifling. Perhaps this contribtues to the pressure signs I have seen.

Jeffe,

I don't understand why you think that all copper has identical material properties.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Alf,

I think the difference is that some of the Hawks I have seen start out with the bulge, and it has to be swaged down as the bullet engraves the rifling. Perhaps this contributes to the pressure signs I have seen.

Jeffe,

I don't understand why you think that all copper has identical material properties.

Dan,
"pure copper" is "pure copper".. that would be, in a metalurical sense, something past 99.9%, assuming it's not analytical grade stuff. Pure copper means "not enough other stuff to matter".. and pure copper has specific properties.. which is why there are so many alloys of it. Alloys are never called "pure copper" except by the tyro.

Andy's bullets, other than having a slightly larger base hole, are functionally identical to barnes originals. Futher, their components are listed as being identical.

Pure copper is soft and maluable. In a predictable way. All germain alloys of copper are harder than pure copper. The bullet obturates (did I spell that right) to the barrel according to pressure, jacket thickness, and normal metaturical properties.

On the bulge.. I'll mic some hawk bullets... I think what you are seeing is actually a "wasp waist" not a bulge of any meaningful size over groove diameter... as that could crumple cases (not something I have yet heard hawks blaimed for) or cause an overly large neck (i HAVE had this problem with non-bridger turned solids) that wont chamber...

But, Dan, if the jacket is pure copper, and the bullets go in the case, and the case goes in the chamber easily, it's PII....

I've heard andy's bullets be blaimed for everything under the sun, from gun blowups to impotence.. and you, being a lawyer, would know that a SINGLE picture of a jacket stuck in a barrel would result in new ownership of the hawk bullet company.

Let's face it, hawks used to be a cheap, unbonded, "cold" swaged bullet... the cheap part is gone... but from a function and design sense, they are indistingishable from barnes originals

jeffe

Jeff,

Pure copper may be the same atoms, but it is not necessarily the same hardness from lot to lot as that property can be modified by the way it is processed. And there is clearly a difference in the way Barnes originals and Hawks behave. They may look alike, but they do not work alike, any more than balsa wood is identical to oak. Of course this does not mean that I think either are a good bullet, but I can load more powder behind a Barnes original without a pressure problem than I can behind a Hawk.

You seem to be denying the pressure problem. ALthough you may not have personally experienced it, I wonder how you could explain away the experienes that others have had.

quote:

I've heard andy's bullets be blaimed for everything under the sun, from gun blowups to impotence.. and you, being a lawyer, would know that a SINGLE picture of a jacket stuck in a barrel would result in new ownership of the hawk bullet company.

I don't know what that little condescending diatribe is about or how it relates to me. Did you think I was suggesting that someone's gun blew up (even though it was not in my posts)?

It takes a metallurgist to tell the difference between virgin metal and a common ore!

I stopped using Hawk bullets because I was getting flattened primers at lower chronographed velocities and lower powder charges in my 30 Gibbs. I emailed Andy Hill and relayed my findings and asked for his recommendation. IIRC, I also gave him a "heads up" that he was getting some bad press here on AR. He never replied to that email or several others and he never responded to numerous phone messages. It matters not to me how good his bullets may or may not be....I won't deal with anyone who holds a client in such low regard that he refuses to respond to legitimate questions about his products. I have been told that others have had similar experiences. FWIW

Dan,
I don't believe we have a basis to continue this specific discussion. Your exmaple of oak and balsa don't make any sense to me.. perhaps "claro" and "american black walnut" would be a closer comparision.

There's some material on the hawk site, regarding jacket thickness and load dev, which basically states that you build a load for the heavist jacket, and then you can use that data for the lighter ones.

No swipe at you on the "blaime" comment, if you want to take it as "condescending" that's your call, though not my intention, it was meant as a reality check... if he bullets where are flawed as people say, there would be law suits... that he wouldn't win, and thus, a change of ownership. Don't know why you would take this personally...

yep.,, copper can be work hardened.. and when it undergoes the same steps, in the same types of machines, it will have the same hardening, more or less. Copper is a material with known properties... "pure copper" is exactly this... a soft, consistant metal....

I'll restate my post

quote:

Dan,
i'll suggest we disagree on hawks and their construction, and the relative properties of "pure copper"

i will state, however, (even though I actually dislike the bullets)

if 1/2 of the "issues" people say andy has with his bullets are true, then he wouldn't be in business a week

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ACRecurve:
It takes a metallurgist to tell the difference between virgin metal and a common ore!

Andy,
I only use hawks when there's not other choice... and for some guns, there aint... but they aint "cheap" anymore, so it's a "wy bother with them" at this point

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Copper is a material with known properties... "pure copper" is exactly this... a soft, consistant metal....

Not all copper is created equal. Oversimplification is a dangerous thing.

quote:

Annealed Metal (Soft) - Recrystalized Grains - Produced by Annealing Hard Metal - Special Soft Tempers are used for short radius bending, cold heading and cold swaging. Cold worked surfaces are suitable for most polishing.

1/2 Hard Metal (Cold Worked) - Distorted and Broken-up Grains - Produced by Cold Drawing or Cold Rolling Soft Metal to Finish Size. Common Hard Temper Rectangular and Square Bar. Standard Bus Bar Temper. Used for parts requiring machining, large radius bends, slight cold heading and slight cold swaging.

Full Hard Temper (Cold Worked) - Much Distorted and Broken-up Grains - Produced by Cold Drawing or Cold Rolling Soft Metal to Finish Size. Common Hard Temper for Round Rods. Used for parts requiring machining. Generally not suitable for bending, cold heading and cold swaging. Hard tempers are favorable to blanking, shearing and machining.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Copper is a material with known properties... "pure copper" is exactly this... a soft, consistant metal....

Not all copper is created equal. Oversimplification is a dangerous thing.

quote:

Annealed Metal (Soft) - Recrystalized Grains - Produced by Annealing Hard Metal - Special Soft Tempers are used for short radius bending, cold heading and cold swaging. Cold worked surfaces are suitable for most polishing.

Yes, Dan, it is.. in fact, you have now presented the only swaging selection, as "slight" swaging is not the question here. Ask Pottsy on the other forum.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/maintest.htm

quote:

Annealing the copper jackets to a "dead-soft"â„¢ condition gives a number of improvements over any other design. They seal the bore and engage the rifling more completely, improving accuracy and eliminating gas blowby. Barrel friction is about half that of a hard jacket bullet, thus fouling is reduced. All of the forgoing improves accuracy.

Our "soft"â„¢ jackets stay together, even with 3 diameters of expansion. They stretch and flow to support the mushrooming lead core, keeping the bullet intact even in extreme deformation or expansion

I think tht pretty much wraps this up...
pure copper, annealed as Dan points out, is what is used in swaging bullets.

Any questions specifically related to bullet swaging should be directed to Pottsy, as he is the SME

jeffe

Jeff, why are you assuming that it is all identical?

Dan,


because they are listed as the same manf process with the same materials to make a comparable product.

Like I said, ask pottsy on swaging.. he'll talk about exactly TWO alloys.. pure and some percentage zinc (gilding material) or c200 and c220

PURE.. Swaging .. Bullets.. pretty clear to me

http://www.barnesbullets.com/prodoriginal.php

quote:

This is the bullet that started it all. Produced by pressure forming pure copper tubing around a pure lead core, this highly reliable bullet was the first custom bullet available to American handloaders

quote:

http://www.hawkbullets.com/maintest.htm

Annealing the copper jackets to a "dead-soft"â„¢ condition gives a number of improvements over any other design. They seal the bore and engage the rifling more completely, improving accuracy and eliminating gas blowby. Barrel friction is about half that of a hard jacket bullet, thus fouling is reduced. All of the forgoing improves accuracy.

Our "soft"â„¢ jackets stay together, even with 3 diameters of expansion. They stretch and flow to support the mushrooming lead core, keeping the bullet intact even in extreme deformation or expansion

The assumption that all pure copper is identical is clearly erroneous.

All you have to do is shoot the different bullets and you can see the difference.

Soft copper is about the same but Hawk in
the 550 bullets I got, doesn't close up the base
as tight as Barnes or others....In fact it is
open about a .240 in, and has slight bulge at
base..I've heard of others they make that are to open..That would make for higher pressures,
with a load with the shit behind it. For my
550He testing I will remove bulge as those
600 grainers will top out at 3 grand..All
different Barnes I have had were closed up tight and no bulges..Had them over 3000 fps.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
The assumption that all pure copper is identical is clearly erroneous.

All you have to do is shoot the different bullets and you can see the difference.

Dan,
This is only clearly erroneous to you. The issue one sees when firing different bullets is actions of the different SHAPES and BEARING surfaces, which explains engagement and pressure. This is why one reduces loads when changing components. This is standard practice. And, frankly, pretty much reloading 101.

Why don't you call Pottsy on the matter, and have a 3 min conversation with him? I trust you understand him to be an expert in the field, and I bet he can clear this up for you in seconds.


On material specifications

"pure copper" or "4140 alloy steel" ...
the trade's working assumption is that a NAMED SPECs are functionally identical.

Ordering pure soft COPPER means one gets a mass of Cu .. with a TRACE ammount of other things. The industry sees those traces, when significant, as something other than pure copper, and one buys it as something else... It's temper is also a materials spec, not a whim...

This is explained far better than I will be willing to in the "Machinist Handbook" the version of which is unimportant, as long as it's since, oh, 1900.

I didnt intend this to become a

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Soft copper is about the same but Hawk in
the 550 bullets I got, doesn't close up the base
as tight as Barnes or others....In fact it is
open about a .240 in, and has slight bulge at
base..I've heard of others they make that are to open..That would make for higher pressures,
with a load with the shit behind it. For my
550He testing I will remove bulge as those
600 grainers will top out at 3 grand..All
different Barnes I have had were closed up tight and no bulges..Had them over 3000 fps.Ed.

Ed,
If there is a bulge (i'll check some of mine), then I would imagine it's because Andy's press has "run out" of steam swaging those big jackets... even with pure soft copper, there's going to be bounce back.

jeffe

Jeff,

I'm telling ya', some pure copper is softer than other pure copper (which also makes it seem sticker). You can see it in performance on game. You can see it in the pressures generated.

Example:

Hawk .435" .035 jacket 350 grain bullet, 2500 fps, 2 of them go through a deer (1 broadside, one quartering away) with NO EXPANSION.

Hawk .474" .435 jacket 500 grain bullet 2300 fps, blows an elk head to smithereens because it expanded quickly.


Another example:

3 GS Custom .510" FN solids (pure copper) fired into elephant head, frontal, with no significant deformation. 2150 fps.

1 GS Custom .510" FN solid (pure copper) fired into elephant head, frontal, mooshed the bullet nose noticeably. 2150 fps.

Unless I misunderstand you very badly, you are saying that all pure copper will have the same hardness, have the same coefficient of friction in a barrel, and expand the same way at the same velocity. But it doesn't all have the same hardness, so it doesn't all behave the same way. It varies batch to batch. Also, 'pure copper' is sometimes more pure and sometimes less pure, and the impurities will vary based on the supplier. Additionally, the work hardening can be different from manufacturer to manufacturer.

However, I am sure you are not convinced. So be it.

Dan,
now that you are NOW mixing apples to blue... you didn't talk about different bullets and different jackets when you said you got spikes with the same loads and the same bullets... you said your got spikes FROM the same load... guess you'll keep changing the parameters till you can get it right and then you can say "ah"..


well, let me cut to the chase for you

I give up... call potsy..

and yeah, keith, your icons are right

jeffe