A FRIEND IS CONSIDERING A DOUBLE RIFLE IN A RIMLESS CALIBER. MOSTLY A 375 H&H BUT ALSO LOOKED AT A 416 RIGBY DOUBLE. I RECOMMENDED HE STICK WITH A FLANGED/RIMMED CASE BUT HE WANTS A DOUBLE IN THE SAME CALIBER AS ONE OF HIS BOLT GUNS, WHICH IS A NEAT IDEA.... BUT WE ALL HAVE HEARD THE STORIES ABOUT EXTRACTION PROBLEMS WITH RIMLESS CASES IN DOUBLES. DOES ANYONE HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH RIMLESS DOUBLES? HOW MANY ROUNDS HAVE YOU FIRED...ETC. EVEN ONE FAILURE TO EXTRACT COULD BE ONE TO MANY. BUT I HAVE SEEN SO MANY BOLT GUNS FAIL TO FEED OR EJECT MAGNUM ROUNDS THAT MAYBE THE RIMLESS DOUBLES AS A WHOLE HAVE A BETTER RELIABILITY RECORD AFTER ALL?

For all intents and purposes, a belted case is the same as a rimmed one in break-action guns. However, I have had experience with rimless cases in several break-action single-shots, and they don't work as well as they would if the barrels were chambered for a rimmed or belted case.

NE 450 No2, your friend is about to waste a lot of money on a rifle that will not be reliable. In the first place, the 416 Rigby, or the 375 H&H belted magnum produce too much chamber pressure for the 19th century technology, that is a double rifle. The 375 Flanged Magnum is well suited to the double rifle, and produces less chamber pressure then the belted rimless version. Mainly, though, the extractors have to be made so flimsey that that it isn't "IF" they will fail,but simply "WHEN" will they fail. His idea of haveing a single barrel rifle in the same chambering as his double is, indeed, a good one, and was thought of 100 years ago. But the single barrel rifle was chambered for the flanged cartridge of the double rifle not the other way round. I have three sets that are exactly what you describe but they are Ruger No1s chambered for the cartridges my double rifles are chambered for, all flanged. I think your friend is looking at the New Merkels, which are good rifles for the price, I have one myself, but for the life of me, I can't see why anyone today, especially and old Co. like Merkel would chamber their Safari double in only one double rifle chambering, the 470 NE. The other two are not suitable for a double rifle in any context, and certainly not in a dangerous game rifle! Your screen name is a round that was almost dead till CHAMPLIN started re-chambering, and re-regulating doubles that had been chambered for 458 Win Mag, and found un-reliable, the only .458 diameter around that would clean out the old chamber, was the 450NE#2, that is now a speciality of Champlin to make the 458 Win Mag double rifle reliable again, and at only 28,000 lbs chamber pressure, instead of 50,000 PSI

This is a free country, however, and your friend may spend his money any way he pleases, But I have been tradeing double rifles for many years, and my experience tells me to stay away from rimless cartridges in a double rifle, especially high pressure ones!

PS: NE 450 No2, can I ask why you write in upper case? In computer ethics, this is considered screeming your post at people! NO flame intended, just asking!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-28-2002).]

Just to echo what Mac has said, the double rifle was designed to deliver a large projectile at low pressure. They were designed with the safety of the flanged case for reliable ejection. Just my opine here, but that what they ought to shoot, a Flanged round!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Thanks for the info. that is what i told him. He is not a reloader and wants easy to find ammo. His thoughts were "why would all these high dollar companies make rimless doubles if they were not reliable?" I told hin that none of the double shooters I know recommend them, even some who sell doubles do not recommend them... But I must admit have never talked to anyone who has shot one. Surely with as many rimless doubles that have been sold, someone on this forum has used one. ..Sorry about the uppercase. Our machines at work are all that way, it is what I am used to, thanks.

450NE No. 2,

There is a simple solution.

Your friend can buy a double in 500 NE, 577 NE or 600 NE. And he can buy a Heym bolt action rifle in the exact same caliber. That way his double will work as intended - RELIABLY. I think the 500 NE is $6K and the 600 NE is $10K or so, in a Heym bolt gun.

Best of luck to him.

I have shot rimless double rifle in .243, and overunder bought for fungunning javelina.

Missed the first one I shot at, and saw my son drill it dead. Never got a second chance on game, but I did shoot 3-4 boxes through it with no problema in extracting.

I have had extract problems, only once, with a rimmed round 9.3X74R jammed on loading, into a double rifle. The case was not sized properly,a nd the rim bent before I gave in and used an aluminum arrow to plunge the loaded round back out from teh business end.

I immediately lost all faith in that double rifle, and swapped it back to the selling dealer who accepted for credit as a tradeup for another one.

I would not spec out a rimless round for any break action rifle. the nubbin that engages the cartridge to extract is less than a couple mm insize, not much surface area on a soft brass material.

But I only shoot break actions any more.

The flip side is that there are some pretty good bolt action and even lever actions and pumps that have been built around rimmed cartridges. the 303 british comes to mind.

merkelmeister,
Great handle! I am a new afficianado of Merkel 470 NE 140 A's.

Check out Bartle Bull's book, _The White Rhino Hotel_, or have you already?

In this vigorous fiction and old German in Tanzania lovingly passed on a Merkel 470 NE double to a budding young Allan Quartermain type, just after the end of WWI.

The old Merkel served them both well.

I think Bartle Bull knows a bit about safari rifles, and was going for a bit of realism to make his fiction come to life, regarding the Merkel, eh?

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RAB

I will go with Mac and Rusty...You will not catch me hunting dangerous game with any double rifle caliber but a rimmed one. End of story.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com