I was considering the .416 Rigby for a long while but dropped it from the list... at least for now. Cost of brass and low choice of bullets and such would turn into a costly project. I've turned my sights toward the .458 WM or even the Lott chambering. No Africa trip planned, mostly big bears and the like. Am I being reasonable in my thinking?
Just as long you admit to yourself that the 458 Winnie has a small case capacity and limit yourself to using 450 gr bullets and RE 7, you'll do alright. You can use 300 gr and 350 gr bullets by whichever maker for casual plinking and use 450 gr bullets and no heavier for bigger stuff. Check out Northfork bullets and Groove bullets for your bullets. There is also the fact that 458's are notorious for digesting cast bullet loads with nary a hitch and you'll get 2"-3" groups with open sights. Northfork will make a limited amount of solids if needed. For CONUS use, the 450 softpoint will do all manner of game for you.
Absolutely, old man, absolutely. Getcherself a Winnie with a 24" barrel, now, t'make sure thatcher don't loose any more velocity then yer haveta. Use fresh powder and keep it cool in yer larder and whatchell have is a Mauser version of the sainted .450 NE. Big enough to take anything, don'tcherknow. Th'problems with the Win had mostly to do with heat and bad storage, not that anyone'd know that until it happened. In time, yer'll be buckin' for Africa and then yer can think about rechamberin' it for Lott. By then, bigawd, the Lott will be common factory ammo and yer'll be all set up. Good thinkin', than man.
Posts: 2690 | Location: Lakewood, CA. USA | Registered: 07 January 2001
I'd recomend a lott and here's why. It's kind of like the having a .44 special why own that when you can have a .44mag that'll shoot specials and mags.
The lott will do the same it'll shot .458 win as well as lott. And it's every bit as cheap to reload for. It uses the same bullets and the brass can be had from Hornandy for $21.99 per 50 and the dies can be had from Hornandy for $29.00...To me the Lott is a no brainer.
If at all possible, I'd get the rifle chambered in the 458 Lott cartridge. Then I can use WM ammo until opportunity would call for the extra boost from the Lott cartridge.
CZ 550 or maybe a Ruger No. 1 are on the list for this project.
There is NOTHING "wrong" with the 458 Win. It's not as "right" as the 458 Lott, or the 450 Rigby, or the 450 G&A, but it's not near as bad as most american hunters think. I know Many Africans, and they use it a LOT. It's not as good on Elephant as some of the "500gr at 2300-2450 shells", but it does fine. For north american game it's more than You'll ever need. I ran a bullet company a few years ago (Cast Performance Bullet Company. Riverton Wyoming) and We had a bullet made just for the 458. It was absolutly outstanding. SUPER accurate, 440 grains and it could not be stopped in any N. American animal including big bears and bison. In 3 years we never had one recovered from a N. American animal, and only 3 from African cape bufffalo. The killing effect must be seen to be understood. I might agree that the Lott is a little more versatile shell, but anyone that speaks as if the 458 Win. is useless has never used one with good ammo. It will match or beat the old 450 Nitro, tridationalists not withstanding. Most Ameriacn hunters don't have their own opinion as much as they hold the opinion they were told to have by some "gun-writer"
If you have a good 458, You need not make any apologies.
i believe, gentlemen, that the 470 NE is the actual round it meant to match performance with, as the 450 NE was on the decline due to inda and sundan .458 bores.. the 450 ne #2 would have been a closer pairing..
in any event, the 458 win is a ball to shoot... you can load from 300 to 600 grains... my youngest son has one on a mexican mauser, limited to 3.15" oal.. so it's rem 405 FP at 2400-2500.. yes, these are not african bullets, but they make mincement out of hogs
Surestrike, not everybody can handle the 458 Lott. Most can barely handle a 375 and maybe a 416. The Lott is definitely a handful without a lot shooting experience. By the way, there is nothing wrong with the 44 Special as I've whacked my share of critters with 17 gr/2400 w/250 SWC out of a S&W Mod 24.
That's why they made a 416 Remington...Its cheaper to shoot than a 458 Win. and it will do anything the 458 will do and then some IMO.....Mine is a Mauser and it worked so much better than the 458, that I sold my 458 Win and my .458 Lott....
The Lott is a real hammer but recoil was pretty grim from field positions and I couldn't tell much difference on how it killed compared to the 416 and I have shot a lot of Buffalo with both..
I am not sure but I have seen some evidence that the Lott is better on shoulder shot elephant than the 416, but my experience is very limited here...I have noticed on a couple of elephant that the Lott just seemed to sort of cave them in, but I would have to see a lot more shot to make a firm determination on that.
That's only my opinnion, based on some use of both calibers and I make no claim to its legitamacy...
Posts: 42320 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000
I'd definately go for a 458 for big US game. Here's mine that was built last year, Charles Daly Mauser action, 5A contour 25" Douglas barrel, barrel band sling swivel, Dakota sights, Warne QD scope mounts, Boyds JRS laminated stock. It shoots the 350 gr. Federal loads into .4 at 50 yd.s and the same with 500 gr. loads.
Posts: 1242 | Location: Houston, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
Hey dude, that's a nice looking stock. When I restock my old Ruger 77 in 458, I guess I'll try to get a stock like that. I've been told it is fairly easy to convert the old pushfeed to CRF in my Ruger as that's my next project.
Hey BG, that's gorgeous! Did the stock come that dark or did you have to stain it? All the laminates I've come across so far look like sick zebras. That one's nice. Howyoudodat?
Posts: 2690 | Location: Lakewood, CA. USA | Registered: 07 January 2001
Today I shot a 338 Win Mag, a 375 H&H and my Ruger RSM 458 Lott. The one thing I can say about the Lott is that it is in a whole new league as far as recoil goes from the 338 and 375. I also have a 416 Rem. I've shot the 416 30 to 40 rounds off the bench in a long day before but the 458 Lott is about a 15 to 20 shots a day max for me. The 338's and 375 I've shot over 100 rounds combined in a day before. The conclusion to all of this is that unless you need the 458 and/or you are willing to commit to shooting a hard-recoiling gun you might think twice about the 458's. Other's with more experiance like Mr. Atkinson can tell you more about hunting with them, but I think that for American Hunting a 375 H&H may be all you ever need.........DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
The gunsmith that built the rifle stained the stock before I got it. The color looks like he did a very deep red then black (or dark brown) over that, it has just a tinge of red to it, and I can't think of a single color stain that would give this color. Thanks for the compliments, I thought it looked very good for a laminate.
Jeffe, I was out shooting the 7x57 Friday and even I couldn't tell when it went off. I've probably put 4-5 boxes through the 458 now so it's hard to tell when the little guys go pop.
Posts: 1242 | Location: Houston, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
Jeff, Jana says i get better with her 708 after i've been shooting my 500 jeffe... i just dont know it's gone off, so i just sqeeze till the hole appears!!!
Jeffe, I'm wating for Hill Country Rifles to finish with the Whitworth. Smoothing up feeding, installing Timney and a PME safety. Need to get in out so I can finalize our loads for Namibia. Let's get a shoot together before we go in July, Bob
I'm about ready, I've got two golf tournaments next weekend and off to Ingram (Axis) the weekend of May 14th. Other than that I should be good. Email me when you get a date put together, if you want to do another big one I still have plenty of venison sausage I can cook up.
Posts: 1242 | Location: Houston, TX, USA | Registered: 04 April 2002
I absolutely love my Ruger .458's... I've got a #1 and an old model M77 and they're a blast to shoot. I'm new to this cartridge personally but have been impressed with it's affordability to plink with and accuracy. My 405gr Rem JSP loading at 1900 fps is a tackdriver and very pleasant to shoot (.40 cents a round), yet plenty for any North American game. It's an easy cartridge to load and bullets are very plentiful in terms of variety and availability. I've got a number of loads I want to experiment with, including the 500gr Hornady RN now, but so far I'm very pleased with the cartridge and plan to use it for deer, elk, etc with my reduced loads. It's got power to spare on any North American game and from reports from the pro's it's up to any task when properly loaded.
I think Phil Shoemaker said it well about the .458 in the July/Aug '03 issue of Rifle magazine - It's not the biggest, fastest or most powerful; yet, like the .45 ACP cartridge in pistols, it has become the standard by which all others of its kind are judged.
It gets the job done and it's available the world over, a working man's heavy game round.
Posts: 863 | Location: Mtns of the Desert Southwest, USA | Registered: 26 February 2004
I didn't say there was anything wrong with either the .44 special or the .458 win. I just like the flexability to shoot several rounds through the same action like the Lott or the .44 mag gives you.
I really like my Lott but I wouldn't feel undergunned hunting anything on this planet with a .458Win.
I load my Lott up to about 2200FPS with a 500gr bullet, keeps the recoil at a mangable level drops the pressure a bit and will kill anything you point it at.
I'm not doging the the .458win I just like the versitility of the lott..
If you load the 458 Win with Speer AGS Solids then you will get 2150 - 2200 f/s . That will do it on even the biggest elephant bull. With most other bullets it is difficult to obtain reasonable velocities without excessive pressure.
If the choice was mine I would go for a 416 Rigby or a 458 Lott. You will not regret that choice.
Ray is 100% right...once you go to a long action for the Lott, most folks are better off with the 416 Rem. If you can tolerate the recoil of a 416 Rem, then you can take a look at the 375 RUM...they are dead ringers in the kicking department when comparing 400 and 300 gr bullets, respectively. I feel that the 416 is better unless you handload, and then you need to deal with the fact that the 375 RUM can efficiently shoot 225 and 235 gr bullets 2600 fps....fine deer loads.
However, in a true '06 length action there is still little competition for the 458 Winnie, especially if you handload. AA 2230 and 2460 solve the case capacity problem, and will drive 500 grainers 2200 fps all day long at 46,000 CUP.
Posts: 1111 | Location: Afton, VA | Registered: 31 May 2003
Since you aren't planning on Africa at the moment, just big bears and other NA game, then the 458 is a fine choice, either the winny or better yet the Lott.
There is one absolute key to using the 458 Lott for NA game, load it to winny levels w/ 350 gr bullets. A 350 gr speer or hornady will clock 2400-2500 fps with 76-80 gr of RL-7, groups will be small and your shoulder will think you are shooting a 375. It's cheap to shoot, and easy to find componets for. If you talk to bear guides that have used those bullets at those speeds, you'll find out that it is an extremely effective round, much more so than the 375.
You can also load up a few boxes with 500 gr bullets at 2200-2300 fps for "friends" that ask to shoot your elephant gun.
Now, if you were looking for a dedicated thick skinned dangerous game hunting rifle, I'd agree with the experts that a 40 caliber firing a 400 gr @ 2400 fps provides the needed penetration w/o the recoil of a heavy 45. I'll also never dispute that full patch 500 gr loads in a 458 Lott are a different level of recoil than medium bore rifles.
Posts: 7213 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 27 February 2001
PaulH, you so fonny! Different level of recoil? Dude it can be a quantum leap for the tyros out there who haven't been abusing themselves for about 30+ years to build up recoil tolerance. I thought that if I shot my 416 a lot, the 458 Lott would be a snap. Wrong. It only was prelude of things to come. The Lott in my Ruger actually go me to thinking of NOT shooting any more rounds. I just tweaked it with a few tungsten rods to help dampen recoil. I've been thinking of sissifying it with a mercury tube too.
Sean
