Hi folks,

So, I'm a product of the scope age and until recently, it was a rare thing for me to shoot any kind of open sighted rifle. A couple of years ago, I went to Tanzania for a short buffalo hunt and my scoped .375 was delayed. I used an open sighted Datoka in .416 for a few days. I shot poorly (read missed a whole flippin' buffalo from 50 yds. At least I was bad enough to miss it.). When I got home I decided I wanted to take a step up in rifle power and learn how to shoot open sights despite an old eye injury that leaves me a bit near sighted in my dominant eye. To this end, I bought a second hand custom mauser in .404 Jefery fitted with peep sights. I went with peep sights to reduce the number of things my damaged eye had to try to focus on. Is there a different way achieve something similar?

For the first couple of trips to the range, I was deadly at bayonet range, but not so much after that. I can now reliably keep everything in a 6" circle from field positions at 50m. However, I can't call the shots with any real recision, just up and left a bit, or real low. I have to do better than that if I intend to hunt with that rifle. Any tricks to help me practice smarter and not just harder? Right now I'm thinking my options are giving up on open sights (and a double rifle one day) and eye surgery.

Thanks,
Dean

Dean,

Not sure how nearsighted you are, but you can shoot with glasses that correct the nearsightedness. I am farsighted and use glasses that give me effectively some blur with the iron sights but with practice and consistent sight picture I can shoot the irons up to 100 meters reliably.

Key is to shoot only occasionally at paper and mainly to ensure that you know where your sights are putting your group or, if using a double, what the size of your composite group is and whether your load (if you are handloading) is ensuring the barrels regulate.

For practice, set out balloons that are about eight inches in diameter at distances from 10 to 80 yards (the former is a charging balloon )
It's a great exercise because you don't eyeball the balloon as you do paper moving from bull to front sight, you just shoot and the balloon is gone -- or it isn't.

Regards, Tim

you're not alone - i spent much of the weekend teaching another guy how to use irons. the thing you must remember is to concentrate on the front sight. When you're young it seems like you can see the rear sight, front sight and target clearly at the same time, but that is because young eyes focus that fast. as you age you'll find the focus time is much longer and 2 of the 3 are blurred. Concentrating on the target is normal, but wrong. By doing so you will find your shots will ring the bullseye and never touch it. That is because the front sight is wandering around in a circle. concentration on the front sight needs some practice. get yourself a 22 with iron sights and start shooting. it won't make any difference whether you use a 22 or a 470, the sight picture and principles are the same. remember sight picture and trigger squeeze. the other thing is a 6 oclock hold. you actually hold the sight picture at the bottom of the bull and adjust the sights to hit the center. this was you see the target as a circle. by aiming at the target the front sight can drift around in it and you won't see it happen. by using a 6 oclock hold you will see the bottom of the target disappear or a while line appear etc. this is for target shooting, but if you learn to use irons this was, game will be a snap. Once you've got this sight picture etc. down, then move on to other targets, they should come easily by then.

When you get older you realize that it becomes increasingly harder to focus or even see things at varying distances and resovle that you must use a scope. I personally restrict my use of iron sighted rifles to under 50 yards and more practically 25yards and under. It doesn't much matter whether they are peep or open just find it increasingly harder to make all of it come together. I can generally put 2 shots in 3" at 25 yards with a heavy (read 470) and open sights but have trouble doing better than 6" at 100yds with a 223 and a peep. I have found I do better with open irons with the rear mounted about half way down the barrel and do poorest with peeps. As a result I have scopes on ALL my rifles and use them almost exclusivly. I personally only use irons if the scope is damaged beyond use.

Good advice from all.

I would add that, given your vision problems, you chose well when you decided to go with an aperture rear sight.

For the same reason, I would think that a Patridge, or square post, would likely be your best bet for a front sight.

Maki I have resurected my forgotten open sights skills lately and found it a great, great thing to do - meanwhile I have dug out some very good stuff from the internet lately - helped me a lot - look at those:

Open sights basics.

And Don Nygord's notes

Donald was an air pistol shooter - member of US Shooting Team competing in Olympic style...some GREAT tips on shooting irons and shooting in general - enjoy.

Thanks for the help, I'll be trying these hints out. One thing I've been wondering about is whether my expectations are out of wack. With a scope, you can call the shoot very accurately. Maybe with irons calling the shot in or out of the vitals is good enough?

Dean

Pick the sights you are most comfortable with. As primarily a pistol shooter Patridge sights are best for me[ the rifle I learned with as a kid had them too].1/8" square post, 1/8" square notch. Or you can try peep ,1/8" square post, 1/8" to 3/16" peep. Both these are fast and accurate. Roughly align the sights with focus on the target , then bring back focus to the front sight for final adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by maki:
Thanks for the help, I'll be trying these hints out. One thing I've been wondering about is whether my expectations are out of wack. With a scope, you can call the shoot very accurately. Maybe with irons calling the shot in or out of the vitals is good enough?

Dean

Dean,
The links mouse93 posted are great. when you are using your peep rear try using a 6:00 hold on the target/bulse eye as it is easier to see where you are rather than trying for a center hold.
Bill

.......Iron sights and practice go hand in hand .....A Lyman or Williams rear with the apperture taken out and a sourdough post front are the classic Alaskan sights.,., but I do better with wide shallow V express rear and a smallish bead front .. ...22,s are great,. But it is good to have some pretty realistic practice also .....To that end I had a CZ 550 Safari Mag for a winter in 300 win mag..It became a 416 Rem. I,de load up a bunch of what ever 308 stuff I had on hand and go blow off 30 rounds or so in an after noon .. or 5 or 10 on a dog run . ect ., Stumps and ballons .. ,., Shoot a stump 50 - 100 yrds away , clamber over to it and see how I did then find another and continue ...We have Alot of clearcuts here I helped maks a few .,.And ballons they are quite a challenge in a 5-10 mph breeze .,., One of the great things of the 458 cal rifles is Cheap bullets for blastin , Combined with a starting load powder charge .,.,.,We all are really into our special rifles .,.,but one of the best things we can do is just plane jane practice....I,m guilty of not knowing the group size of sevral of my rifles , but I can hit a deer in the head with all of them at a hundred yards off hand .with a scope and @75 with irons , if my eyes arn,t all dried out ......I don,t want to sound like I,m bragging ..I,m not really a good shot , but I practice as much as I can and have commited myself to takeing the time to always have a rifle with me when not at work ,, and shooting it daily if possible ...,.,

quote:

Any tricks to help me practice smarter and not just harder? Right now I'm thinking my options are giving up on open sights (and a double rifle one day) and eye surgery.

keeping a fix on the front target is a good thing. I tend to think from my use that the NECG front and rear are quick and accurate. Peeps are good but lately I have been liking the NECG more and more.

I have scopes on most ever rifle I own-for specific purposes. Irons and shooting with irons is something that you should be keen on even if it is on just one specific rifle.

you will get it - be patient and pick out a good set of irons.

Speak to your optometrist to make you a pair of spectacles with progressive addition lenses with a faster transition like the compact designs from Howa, American Optical or Essilor. You could also ask for an addition of approx +0.25 to +0.50 D higher than you require and decentration if you prefer larger spectacle frames or have a larger face. If this is done properly, you would have no problem at all with iron sights.

Not a particularly difficult job for a good optometrist though I would suggest not going to any of the larger chains if you could avoid it.

Dean,
You say you borrowed a rifle to shoot and you could not hit the target. Let's assume it wasn't you and it's the rifle. I had a .375H&H built a number of years ago, and I had a Williams rear dovetail and front sight installed, as well as a scope with leupold detachable rings. The scope was no big deal, but when I shot it over the open sights, the bullet inpact was far too low to hit the 50 yard target from the bench. As it was, the front sight was way too high. Brownells website has a formula for calculating proper front sight height. I'm 53 years young and my eyes aren't what they used to be, but I still shoot open or peep sights on some of my rifles. A peep sight such as a Lyman 56 would not be a bad option either, as I have one of those on my 6.5 Swede exclusively. It is fitted with a Merit adjustable peep insert. I think it is only prudent to have a back-up sight system on a rifle, especially if you are traveling to exotic destinations and your scope gets thrashed in transit.

Good Shooting
Bill

First of all, be sure to sight the rifle in an inch high at 50 and 100 yards..

I grew up shooting iron sights..so I have never known any difference. I like a shallow V with a post and line them up with the post level with the top of the V, much like a pistol sight picture, an old Texas Ranger trick for fast and accurate shooting and it works. I really like a receiver sight with a post. NECG makes a wonderfull gold faced post, get the high sight and file it to zero..

Go back to basics, start with a 22 and when you get really good with it at 50 and 100 then go to your bigger caliber...

You should be able to shoot a 6" group at 100 and about the same at 200 with irons off hand.

perfect practice makes a perfect shot..I end every session with 10 or more off hand iron sight shots..

Irons are surprisingly accurate, and trigger control is all important, keep in mind that yoru irons look dead solid on a target and a scope will magnify your wiggle, therefore many folks can shoot irons better off hand than a scope at 100 yards, I know I can.

Most folks that cannot shoot irons is because they don't want to, and they don't give it a chance to work..anybody can learn to hit a milk jug 100% of the time at 100 yards pretty quick, if they apply themselves..

Many times poor iron sight shooting is not the iron sights, its trigger pull, flinching and all the other common problems.