G'day Gents,
I will be receiving my new CZ 550 Safari Custom very soon and need a load with RL22 and the Woodleigh 600gr PPSN, there is plenty of data for the 525gr pills but not much for the 600's.
BTW, I prefer not to use any loads requiring fillers, don't see the need for it today.

Thanks in advance, guys.

Cheers.

Why do new comers to the 50 cal. Sporting cartridge games always try to buff a turd. I actually have owned/shot/ hunted with both 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs rifles. Quality components will take you further than exotic stuff. IMHO. Trying to make a BMG out of a Jeffery or a Gibbs is a mistake. I used and still use GS Customs of 525 and 535 gr. and they work very well. Even the Barnes x in similar weights are pretty impressive in spite of the fact that even at SOP (no hot rods)the petals more often than not are absent on recovered bullets. Choose a fine rifle for the appropriate caliber, load the cases with quality bullets at reasonable speeds and do your part on the range work and see what happens. DRT!!!

Rigbyhunter,

I agree with lb404 especially in the .50. They are right up there as far as manageability is concerned then people go and make it more "powerful" by adding bullet weight and velocity when its not really necessary. The golden rule still applies - the bullets got to hit the mark. Big cal does give you a bit more margin for error..
Both original loads for 500J and 505 are like a big 416 probably not long range but can be surprisingly flat shooting and versatile. Mostly importantly manageable to shoot.

Don't want to put you off experimenting, each to his own.

505 is an absolutely AWESOME calibre!!

One last thing I've had a CZ 505 stock break, through the pistol grip, on Safari so do what you can to reinforce the stock to reduce the chances of this happening.
Good hunting and happy shooting.
Leon

quote:

Originally posted by Wowo:
505 is an absolutely AWESOME calibre!

+1

I think a 600g Woodleigh PP at around 2100 fps would be a sweet bullet from a 505 Gibbs. I wish I had loads for you, but I only have a little 500 Jeffery and that huge Gibbs case takes a bunch more powder.

Good luck with a great caliber!

The .505 Gibbs original load was with a 600 grain bullet.

hey 416 if you check out www.rbbigbores.com there is a few magazine artical links that have some 505 loading data on there for the 600 grain pills i had my 505 built by him and shoot 600s as well from a 22" barrel at 2300 fps

136-137 grains of imr4350 with a 600 grain woodliegh fed 215 primer

Like the conversation about the 505 Gibbs. Have a CZ on the way. Been a long time since I checked in - but still shooting big ones.

redleg

There's something to be said for upping bullet weight and lowering velocity in big bore rifles. I used to load 600gr Barnes 458 bullets in both a 460 Wby and a 450 Dakota. With close-range rifles, velocity isn't needed so much to flatten trajectory. I guess I'm just an Elmer Keith-kind of guy :-)

This is one of the first made .505 Gibbs by Gibbs.
Loaded with 80 grains cordite AND a 600 grain bullet:

Guess that nothing is new under the sun.



I use 128,5 grain of Norma MRP 2 powder with Woodleigh 600 grain bullets:

I'm pretty sure the standard velocity/ bullet for the Gibbs was 525@2300 f/s.that was what was commercially sold by Westley Richards. Been shooting that load for 20+ years. I agree that 600 gr bullets at lessor speeds is fine, but someone will want the caliber to rock on at 2650 f/s and then that is nuts. Try shooting off a string of 4 rapid fire and at a target at 50 yards and let me know how sporting you feel then!

Oh yes, no muzzle brakes. I used to shoot the ,big 50's last mostly so that folks at the range could see the power of the Gibbs. The muzzle flash at dusk is amazing. Reminds you of Ft. Sill on gang bang night.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I'm pretty sure the standard velocity/ bullet for the Gibbs was 525@2300 f/s.that was what was commercially sold by Westley Richards. Been shooting that load for 20+ years. I agree that 600 gr bullets at lessor speeds is fine, but someone will want the caliber to rock on at 2650 f/s and then that is nuts. Try shooting off a string of 4 rapid fire and at a target at 50 yards and let me know how sporting you feel then!

George Gibbs changed the load to 90 grains Cordite and 525 grain bullet at the introduction of the .505 because he was concerned of high pressures with 600 grain 80 grain Cordite load.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
There's something to be said for upping bullet weight and lowering velocity in big bore rifles.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
There's something to be said for upping bullet weight and lowering velocity in big bore rifles.

+1

+1

There is also something to be said for the ultimately reliable penetration of a mono-metal bullet.

The GSC might be the bullet of choice, if available in HV .504". Only the 540 and 570 grain flatnose solids are listed in their catalog, which is probably an oversight. The 525-grain TSX a good second opinion for checking which is most accurate. For short range there are the CEB's.

Um, I don't recall mentioning anything about high velocity loads or using exotic bullets, I live in Australia and Woodleigh bullets are made locally and I chose their 600gr bullets because I don't believe the 525gr bullet was the correct choice 100 years ago or it is the correct choice today.
Thanks to all that provided load data, it's appreciated and I will definitely be using it.
I can't wait to drop the hammer on this cartridge as it is a cartridge I have admired for a long time and thought I may never get the chance to fire one, let alone own a rifle chambered for one.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
Um, I don't recall mentioning anything about high velocity loads or using exotic bullets, I live in Australia and Woodleigh bullets are made locally and I chose their 600gr bullets because I don't believe the 525gr bullet was the correct choice 100 years ago or it is the correct choice today.
Thanks to all that provided load data, it's appreciated and I will definitely be using it.
I can't wait to drop the hammer on this cartridge as it is a cartridge I have admired for a long time and thought I may never get the chance to fire one, let alone own a rifle chambered for one.

Cheers.

Good luck -you cant go wrong with a 600 grain Woodleigh at 2150fps!

husky,

That is some interesting trivia, thanks,
the 1911 George Gibbs gift to riflecranks.

Do you recall what velocity was claimed for that original 600-grain load?

With modern powder choices, no worries with pressure.

CZ recommends up to 3800 bar or 55,100 psi for routine use in their .505 Gibbs.
CIP recommended pressure max (for the rare antique rifles) is 2700 bar or 39,150 psi.

Some Ryan Breeding load data for the .505 Gibbs (he ought to know what works well), same brass, powder, primer, barrel length not noted:

Powder: H4831 or H4831SC which would be ADI's AR2213SC (old "long cut" replaced by "Short Cut," SC)
Brass: Horneber or Jamison/Captech (Bertram is supposed to be good now too, made on same head as .408 Chey-Tac for > 63K psi)
Primer: F-215 (same as GM215M)

525-grain Woodleigh RNSN
122.0 gr >>> 2100 fps
128.0 gr >>> 2200 fps
135.0 gr >>> 2400 fps

600-grain Woodleigh RNSN
144.0 gr >>> 2500 fps


A-Square shows an H4831 load with their 525-grain "Dead Tough" RNSN bullet in a 26" barrel (1:16" twist),
A-Square brass cartridge case, CCI-250 primer:
132.0 gr. >>> 2257 fps >>> 34,500 psi

Your mileage may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
This is one of the first made .505 Gibbs by Gibbs.
Loaded with 80 grains cordite AND a 600 grain bullet:

Guess that nothing is new under the sun.

The old Jim Bell formula for converting Cordite to IMR-4831 was to multiply Cordite charge by 1.33 to get IMR-4831 weight:

(80.0 grains Cordite) X 1.33 = 106.4 grains IMR-4831

H4831 is slower, so certainly a safe starting place with H4831 would be greater than 106.4 grains!

Minimize air space!

Since 122.0 grains of H4831 works well with the Woodleigh 525-grainer as a Ryan Breeding starting load,
I would recommend that as a starting load for the 600-grain Woodleigh RNSN:

122.0 grains of AR2213SC, same as H4831 (old Long Cut) or newer H4831SC.

If there is much air space in any of the loads, I would fill it with either packing foam or polyester fluff.

But if the load density is 85% or greater, OK, no filler, shooter's choice.
Personally, I prefer to eliminate all air space, either by using compressed charges or adding filler.
I do not want to hear any powder rattle when I shake a cartridge next to my ear.
I use my good right ear for this test,
since my left ear has been dulled more by muzzle blasts, right-handed shooter.

RL-22 is right next to H4831 on the burn rate chart. Maybe RL-22 is a tad slower?
I would certainly feel safe starting at 122.0 grains of RL-22 with a 600-grain bullet also.
Work up and watch the chronograph to desired velocity.

This is from a Guns and Ammo article by Jack Lott.
A load by Ryan Breeding for a magnum mauser 505 he built.
"His best load was 152 grns of IMR 4831 and a 600 grn bullet for 2578 fps. It was accurate and extracted freely" Ouch!

Your teeth or eyeballs maybe! My rifle was brutal. The neurologist told me it was causing a mild concussion every time I shot it. I had gone to the ER after a six shot session of 2450 f/s 525's complaining of numbness in rt. hand.

Short story!

One week later I get a call from Sterling Davenport asking if I wanted to sell my loading dies and components for the Gibbs???
I said, no, that he could use the dies and I could provide some brass and bullets and even the load data I used to feed my gun. He said he thought I wouldn't need them any more since I sold the gun to a client of his. ---

God love her, she sold that bitch out from under me! She had done that same trick getting rid of two model 83 in 454 Casull that kept tearing up my wrist! Love comes in many ways!

despite the naysayers, most of whom I suspect are recovering from concussions due to firing a 22 LR, I do have some practical experience.
I have 2 505's a CZ and a F Wells.
Both digest 600 gr Woodleighs with aplomb using 125-130 gr IMR 4831, no fillers. Velocities are ample about 2100 fps. Differ in different guns. See Nikudu files for more loads using RL 15. Theory is that using a faster powder reduces the jet effect of expelled gases, and reduces recoil. I have tried it. I cannot appreciate the difference. Whether this is due to my thicker than normal cranium, I cant say. have fun!

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
This is from a Guns and Ammo article by Jack Lott.
A load by Ryan Breeding for a magnum mauser 505 he built.
"His best load was 152 grns of IMR 4831 and a 600 grn bullet for 2578 fps. It was accurate and extracted freely" Ouch!

That's about 9000 ft lbs.

I had always assumed that hand numbness was a result of pushing nerves in the shoulder the wrong way. Or knocking the elbow on the bench. I've experienced that from mishandling a 222.

The loads I've tried in my .505 Gibbs are 135 Grains of H-4831SC behind the Woodleigh 600 grain FMJ bullet, and 140 grains of IMR 7828 behind a Woodleigh 525 grain FMJ bullet. I chrono'd the 525 at 2382 FPS, (have not yet chrono'd the 600 grain load cartridge). Based on the resulting recoils, I would not even want to think about the recoil of the Jack Lott loads mentioned earlier! My .505 is heavy….. almost 12 lbs. without the scope , sling, or loaded magazine….slightly over 14 lbs. with all of that stuff added. Photo follows:

That is a nice looking rifle, with Smithson mounts too, just like mine.

I find the 600gn Woodleigh at 2270fps fine to shoot. However after examining some bullets recovered from the 3 buffalo I shot last July up in the NT, I have decided to slow it down to 2150fps, and bring it close to the original factory velocity.

For 525gn bullets the original factory velocity was around 2300fps. I have shot pigs with 525gn Woodleighs at 2500fps, and it smashes them, but the recoverd bullets were very expanded, and I would not shoot that style of bullet faster than 2300fps if I was chasing buffalo, as you need to guarantee good penetration, and slower is better in that regard.

As far as loads are concerned I find that you need to have no less than 128gn of powder if you want to guarantee good ignition without fillers, and with reloader 22 the velocity you want will only need about 122gn, so you will be risking hangfires with that little powder in the case.

You need to load 128gn or more to avoid that, and you will end up driving the 600gn bullets at around 2200fps, or even a bit faster.
To avoid using fillers you need a slower powder like Reloader 25 or AR2217 (H1000), and somewhere between 130gn and 135gn will give you 2100fps or there abouts.

If you want faster loads you need to use monolithic bullets, like the 525gn Barnes TSX, which I am sure you could drive at 2600fps if you wanted to. It would be devastating if you are able to shoot it accurately. I have had 525gn up to 2500fps, and that is similar to 600gn at 2300fps in terms of recoil. At 2400fps the recoil of the 600gn load got a bit too much for me, but 600gn at 2150 fps, or 525gn at 2300fps is quite shootable if you have a rifle with a well designed stock, and an all up weight of around 11lb.
Also at those velocities the Woodleigh bullets work really well.

One caution about loads. When working up loads for the 505 a friend and I tried both my rifle and his, we got very different velocities. On closer examination his barrel measured 0.505", but mine measured 0.507", and it took between 5gn and 10gn more powder (depending on the powder) to get the same velocities. So please take any loads you find on the various websites with a grain of salt, and take the time to work up your own loads using normal safe relaoding practices. As an example my rifle takes 130gn AR2209 to push the 600gn Woodleigh at 2270fps. But a standard size bore will probably only need about 120gn

Hi,

If you email Woodleigh direct they should provide you with some recommended loads to suit their projectiles.

Cheers

DK

128,5 grain Norma MRP 2 was the original African PH load with 600grain Woodleigh SN. It fills up the case nicely.

The MRP 2 is no longer. The supplier of Powder couldnt make consistent batches of MRP 2, so I guess that they now use Norma 217 instead.

Will contact Don Heath and ask how they load .505 Gibbs now.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Will contact Don Heath and ask how they load .505 Gibbs now.

Thanks; look forward to hear how Norma now load their PH line.

I understand their 505 cases are built to Chey-Tac conversion specs.

So I wonder whether the reduced case capacity affects powder choice.

Yes, know thy case capacity as well as thy barrel's groove diameter,
and thus know what to expect, to avoid surprises.

It would be interesting to know the Norma .505 Gibbs case capacity, to see if it differs from Jamison/Captech International brass,
where the .408 Chey-Tac got started with proper headstamp.

Jamison/Captech gross water capacity for the .505 Gibbs is 180.0 grains.
Nice round figure that is from the average of 179.98 rounded up, my check.

The Jamison/Captech .408 Chey-Tac brass is 169.0 grains gross water.
That is verified by me too, and is exactly what QuickLOAD shows as the default case capacity for .408 Chey-Tac.

The .505 Gibbs and .408 Chey-Tac from Jamison/Captech share the same case head.
Just shortened and necked down to make the .408 Chey-Tac.

The QuickLOAD default value for .505 Gibbs is 181.0 grains gross water.

Anyone try any 600gr. Woodleighs with RL17?

Good stuff

quote:

Originally posted by 505Gibbs2600:
Anyone try any 600gr. Woodleighs with RL17?

You would need a fair chunk of foam filler, Re17 would be a bit fast-burning for that bullet.

I finally received my finished 505 Gibbs. I got out today and fired the first five loads out of my new rifle. I tried one load with IMR 4831 and four loads with IMR 4350 -- load data was obtained from Ryan Breeding.

All loads used a 600 gr Woodleigh PP. I chronographed all five loads and velocities measured from 2280fps up to 2592fps. All loads extracted easily and showed no signs of pressure on the primers, case or ejector. Rifle weighs just over 11 lbs and was shot with no muzzle brake. I wore a sweatshirt jacket, light vest and t-shirt.

What I found was that recoil was not anywhere near as severe as I have been led to believe it would be. The gun definitely has recoil but it is not painful. The difference between 2280 fps and 2592 fps is noticeable but not dramatic. I have a 375 Remington Ultra Mag and a 416 Rigby and the recoil on this 505 Gibbs is at a much higher magnitude but still manageable. I can see where people have commented that fast follow up shots are difficult to achieve with these higher velocity loads and I totally agree. These loads would not be great hunting loads but they are fun and manageable at the range.

I am very satisfied with my choice of the 505 Gibbs. Being able to load this gun from 5000+ ft/lbs of energy up to 9000+ ft/lbs of energy makes it extremely versatile. The big case and history behind it have made it a good choice for me.

Now, since I haven't reached my recoil limit...what would be the next step up? How does a 577 T-rex, 585 HE or 600 Overkill compare to the recoil of an almost full power 505 Gibbs? Love this forum, thanks for all of the information I have received while this rifle was being decided on and then built!

Oh, I don't know ... Maybe a 7 1/2 lb Ruger No. 1 in 600 NE?

quote:

Originally posted by 505Gibbs2600:
I finally received my finished 505 Gibbs. I got out today and fired the first five loads out of my new rifle. I tried one load with IMR 4831 and four loads with IMR 4350 -- load data was obtained from Ryan Breeding.

All loads used a 600 gr Woodleigh PP. I chronographed all five loads and velocities measured from 2280fps up to 2592fps. All loads extracted easily and showed no signs of pressure on the primers, case or ejector. Rifle weighs just over 11 lbs and was shot with no muzzle brake. I wore a sweatshirt jacket, light vest and t-shirt.

What I found was that recoil was not anywhere near as severe as I have been led to believe it would be. The gun definitely has recoil but it is not painful. The difference between 2280 fps and 2592 fps is noticeable but not dramatic. I have a 375 Remington Ultra Mag and a 416 Rigby and the recoil on this 505 Gibbs is at a much higher magnitude but still manageable. I can see where people have commented that fast follow up shots are difficult to achieve with these higher velocity loads and I totally agree. These loads would not be great hunting loads but they are fun and manageable at the range.

I am very satisfied with my choice of the 505 Gibbs. Being able to load this gun from 5000+ ft/lbs of energy up to 9000+ ft/lbs of energy makes it extremely versatile. The big case and history behind it have made it a good choice for me.

Now, since I haven't reached my recoil limit...what would be the next step up? How does a 577 T-rex, 585 HE or 600 Overkill compare to the recoil of an almost full power 505 Gibbs? Love this forum, thanks for all of the information I have received while this rifle was being decided on and then built!

Thanks 505,
Unfortunately I'm still waiting for my 1" thread adaptor for my Rockchucker press and still cannot load any rounds until it arrives.
I would love to get your actual loads that you tested with the 600gr Woodleighs, sounds interesting getting over 2500fps with them.
I think recoil is an individual thing, my 375 Weatherby has the sharpest recoil of all the cartridges I own, my 416 Rigby and 458 Lott are no where near as sharp, but both rifles are far heavier than my Model 70 custom S/S in the 375 Weatherby, which is only 8.5lbs with scope and fully loaded.
I don't think I will have a problem with the recoil of the 505, I used to have a 500 NE 3 1/4" which I only ever loaded with 570gr Woodleigh SP's @ 2200fps.

Cheers.

The old .500 NE recipe of a 570 grain .50 caliber bullet at 2150 fps represents a tried and true ideal, and that is what I tried and succeeded in duplicating with my .505 caliber wildcat, based on a shortened (2.5") .460 Weatherby case. 90 grains of IMR 4064 does the trick with absolutely no pressure indications.

My rifle has a 22" barrel and weighs only 8.75 pounds. It would be punishing to shoot at a range, but I never noticed it shooting at game. Once my full power load was developed and the rifle was sighted in, I never fired another full power load until actually ready to hunt.

Instead, I loaded dozens of cast bullet mild recoiling loads and practiced and practiced with my rifle until shooting with it was second nature. In Africa, I fired one full power load to confirm my zero and the rest at game, elephant, buffalo and rhino. The results were always satisfactory.

On one occasion I loaded the rifle up with soft points following up on a wounded lion, but never had to use it. Otherwise, I used 570 grain Kynoch .510" solids sized down to .505".

As far as recoil tolerance is concerned, I once fired four shots at a running buffalo as rapidly as I could work the bolt. He was running past me from left to right, and three of the shots could have been covered with a playing card.



This is my little .505 SRE. The cartridge is the one in the middle, flanked by my .450 C&W on the left and my .577 VSRE on the right. The bullet is the 570 grain Kynoch .510" I sized to .505".

416-- I used the data off of rbbigbores site and followed up with some emails. My rifle has a 23 inch Krieger barrel and weighs just over 11 lbs. I plan on trying a few more loads before I settle on a hunting load. At least one or two loads a bit hotter than what I have tried so far.

xausa-- nice cartridge and pics. I probably will not be going to Africa for 15 years or so until I retire. I enjoy hearing reports from people who have been there and know what works. Till then I will be a range rat with my 505 or possibly hunt whitetail deer in Pennsylvania with it

Want something more painful than the heavy loaded 505? Try a Ruger #1 in 458 Lott...loaded heavy with 500gr Barnes Banded solids. Believe me...you will see stars and your eyesight will be "wavy" for a few hours. In addition, it gave me an instant headache. I sent that bad boy down the road quick...it ain't for me. I do like my CZ Hi-Grade 505 Gibbs though....but only loaded 535gr to 2300fps...which is plenty for about anything including a T-Rex.

quote:

I plan on trying a few more loads before I settle on a hunting load. At least one or two loads a bit hotter than what I have tried so far.

Can you please post the results here? I would love to hear how how far you can load a 505 gibbs... maybe 2600-2650fps??

my max load: (may not be safe in your rifle, approach with caution)
woodleigh 600 gr
Jamison brass ( may be better than others for high pressure loads, used for various mili cartridges eg 408 chey tac, i believe)

IMR 7828 140 GR

havent tried anything hotter, retinal detachment etc.