(A4) Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA?

No.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (16), 27 CFR 178.11 and 178.141(d)]

This straight from the BATF site.

It looks like I can take an antique double shotgun and do with it as I please.

I wonder if I sleeved a Damascus bbl if it would be safe to shoot? I would imagine so, if I used a new bbl of proper dimensions. As I understand it the weak link in the old shotguns was the Damascus bbl. As long as the acion is up to the task. I'll just keep low pressure on the top of the list. I have a couple located with exposed hammers. One has a side lever.

Now just don't chastize me too much for altering a piece of history. I'll check and if they are a terribly collectable thing then I'll get the other one.

Another loophole?

Use of nonstandard ammunition. Wildcat??
45-70 .2" shorter? or whatever.

TITLE 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 SECTION 921(a) (16)

(16) The term "antique firearm" means-

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, Or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in
or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such
replica- -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rinifire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade;
27 CFR 178.11

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;
and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if
such replica (1) is not designated or redesignated for using rinifire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rinifire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Sounds like a wildcat cartige would cover that loophole, as long as you couldn't put a comercially availible cartrige in it.???

i doubt it...

1: ANY shotgun with a barrel under 18" and/or an overall under 27" is an illegal weapon.

2: this text pertains to ONCE PRODUCED ammo (say, .43 egyptian) not wildcats off current ammo (say 9,3x300rum).

call the BATFE and ask who to send a letter to.

Jeffe

Lars

I believe the info you are quoting applies to Title 1 firearms.....your proposed Howda pistol is a Title 2 firearm and is a whole different animal!

You definitely need to send a letter to the BATF Technical branch with very specific questions regarding your proposed project.

Here are a couple of NFA definitions from Bardwell's NFA FAQ Bardwell's NFA FAQ

"A short barreled shotgun is any shotgun (which is defined as a
shoulder fired, smooth bore firearm) with a barrel of less than 18"
or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
shotgun falling into the same length parameters."

"A destructive device (DD) can be two basic categories of things.
It can be an explosive, incendiary or poison gas weapon, like a
bomb or grenade. It can also be a firearm with a bore over 1/2",
with exceptions for sporting shotguns, among other things (see
discussion below). I call the second category large bore
destructive devices."

The Howda you propose will fall into one of these catagories.....the Tech Branch can tell you which one.

Don't take a chance!

Send a letter to the BATF and find out for sure before you build something that they may not like.

III. Firearm Information by Type
D. Rifles
2. Models and Manufacturers
a. Non-Self-Loading Rifles
1. Pre-1899 Rifle FAQ
Revised January 1, 1999

In response to numerous requests, here are the answers to the questions that I most commonly get on pre-1899 firearms. The second half of this FAQ posting lists serial number cut-offs for the 1899 threshold for many guns.

Q: What constitutes "antique" under U.S. law?

A: Although your State and local laws may vary, any firearm with a receiver actually made before Jan. 1, 1899 is legally "antique." and not considered a "firearm" under Federal law. This refers to the actual date of manufacture of the receiver/frame, not just model year or patent date marked. (For example, only low serial number Winchester Model 1894 lever actions are actually antique.) No FFL is required to buy or sell antiques across state lines-- they are in the same legal category as a muzzle-loading replica. I regularly ship them right to people's doorstep via UPS, with no "paper trail." Think of it as the last bastion of gun ownership privacy.

Q: I saw a post that said that pre-1899s are considered modern "firearms" if they are chambered to fire ammunition that is available off-the-shelf. Is this correct?

That is absolutely incorrect. ANY gun manufactured before Jan. 1, 1899 (other than a machinegun or other NFA category, such as a short-barreled gun) is NOT controlled in any way by Federal law. There is NO Federal requirement for sales of these guns to be handled by Federally licensed dealers. They may be freely bought and sold across State lines by private parties, regardless of what cartridge they are chambered in. (However, State or local laws vary.)

Q: Does sporterizing or re-chambering an antique end its exemption?

A: Sporterizing, re-barreling, or re-chambering an antique gun does not effect its legal status. Thus, I can sell folks Mauser sporters that have been converted to modern cartridges (like .308 Winchester!), without having to go through the "FFL to FFL" hassle. (I have a BATF letter confirming

this, that I send on request. Just send me a SASE if you’d like a copy.)

Q: Would an antique serial number range gun be worth more than an otherwise identical gun made just a few years later?

A: Pre-1899 production guns now bring a 15 to 25% premium over identical condition guns made AFTER 1898. Based on market trends, I expect that premium to increase considerably in the next few years. Many of my customers are commenting that they previously had no interest in "antique" guns, but now want one or more because they are paranoid about additional gun laws. For the time being at least, pre-1899 are completely EXEMPT from all federal laws. Presumably, this would also mean that they would be exempt from registration if they ever have nationwide gun registration.... Think about the possibilities.



Q: But what if I find a pre-1899 gun at a gun shop that was mistakenly logged into the dealer's "bound book" of post-1899 firearms? Won’t I have to fill out a Form 4473 (yellow form)?

A: No. All the dealer has to do is log the gun out as: "Inadvertent entry. Pre-1899 manufactured receiver. No FFL required." (If the dealer gives you any grief and insists on the yellow form, a call to any ATF branch office will confirm this.)



Q: Will the prices of pre-1899s continue to go up?

A: Yes, and the rate of increase is likely to accelerate! On Nov. 30, 1998, a mere few months away, the permanent Brady rules come on line. On that date all post-1899 gun sales--long guns and handguns--will fall under the federal control of "national instant background checks." It is obvious that when that happens there will suddenly be a bigger interest in guns that are Federally exempt and that can be bought via relatively anonymous mail order!

Q: Are pre-1899s included in the Brady II background check law?

A: No. They are exempt. <vbg>.



Q: How does the law on pre-1899 antiques and replicas actually read?

A: From the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Which modified Title 18, U.S. Code):

18 USC 921 (a)(16).

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,

percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or

before 1898;

and

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica --

is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
Q: What are the primary davantages in investing in pre-12899 guns rather than modern

(post-1898) guns, or replicas?

A: They are not considered "firearms" under Federal law. Thus they will

most likely be exempt from any new Federal gun registration law.

(Sadly, registration looks inevitable within a few years unless there is

a massive swing of the pendulum back toward a constituional republic.)

I can literally send you a pre-1899 handgun or rifle right to your

doorstep without a lick of paperwork. (Unless your live in for example

New York City or D.C.) It is a great loophole.

I would write the BATF ON this because I am finding all kinds of conflicting data.

in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term 'destructive device' shall not include any device which is neither

designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line

throwing, safety or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685 or 4686 of title 10

of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary of the Treasury or his delegate finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle

which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes."

$1000 a year FFL to deal in DD's. Note that antiques are excluded. Thus the definition of an antique NFA firearm is important.

26 USC sec. 5845(g) "Antique firearm.-The term 'antique firearm' means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire

ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or

replicas thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898,

for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

Some examples of what is a DD and what is not:

Muzzle loading cannon - NOT, as it is an antique design, unless it has some special features allowing breech loading.

I'm drafting another letter to the BATF for clarification on this before I start cutting. It looks pretty clear to me that it would be okay to use an antique or replica with wildcat ammo. Hopefully, I'll get a responce this time. Maybe I should send it registered mail, so they can't just trashcan it. Sounds like maybe a 450 alaskan would fill the bill nicely. I found a beautiful 10ga today, I think it would be much too heavy though.

Lar45, have talked to a friend of mine here in Tidewater who is a Senior Agent with the ATF,and I quote from her" It is a felony to make a pistol out of a rifle period".

Maybe your letter to them can help you more, good luck!

Lots of ATF agents don't know which end of a gun is which! I believe it is within the law to hack at both ends of a pre-1899 gun as it is a non-firearm. Also, should you find a post 1899 shotgun that originally came with only a pistol grip, (Auto and Burgler Gun style) you can make a AOW out of it and only pay a $5 tax. (good luck finding one) Why don't you just pay the tax and do what you want. Shotbarreled shotguns are legal in lots of states and the $200 fee is nothing compared to what your going to pay for the right gun to hack up.

DOC

Check out paladinarmory.com. They do the kind of work you want, very resonable prices.

DOC

I checked with Palidinarmoury, they seemed to think that modifying an antique would still need to be registered. I've sent a new letter off to the BATF with pics.

I've found an original Belgian made Howda in 70cal. I'm trying to work a deal on it with possible partial trade. I'm wondering what a working pressure on this might be? probably low for pre 1900.

I really need to be finished with my engineering degree and get a real job.