Dear AR members,

I am once again turning to you lot for advice (things are looking up employment wise and I am treating myself ). I do not need a .404 Jeffery rifle I have to many already but all the talk....well you know I have to find out what all the comotion is about

Any way my smith has a 1909 Argentine in great nick..oh it's so sexy, it has already had a heap of Jeffery work done on it including a custom made trigger guard/mag box all made from one piece of steel so it holds three down and one in the spout. His work is awsome the mag box release is inside the trigger guard as well. He has also done the bolt handle in a classic straight style, no pattern on it yet.

Now my question is should I go classic or a cross between ?? Should I keep the standard military flag safety or put a dakata 3 position safety on. Should I grind the charger thingy off and have it drilled & tapped for a leupold 2.5x compact, and also did Jeffery's .404's orginally have a stepped type contoured barrel & should I go with this ??

Can you have a cross between classic and contemporary ??

This project will be a slow one, I intend to layaway the action, then barrel etc.

All help/pics/ideas appreciated.

Bought the action already hey...you are bloody hopeless

Bakes

Bakes I saw it today while down in Melbourne and It has been sitting there for two years...he has completed all the major work feeding etc. and I knew it was just meant to be mine . It will take a couple of years to finish this project I am in no rush, but I have the action and thats the main thing. I really want to nut this project out and be sure I am happy with my choices.

And your right I am a dirty gun junky......the 12 steps just aint working for me

I keep saying be sensible no more guns etc.

[ 11-19-2003, 15:47: Message edited by: PC ]

PC

Go classic - you already decided to get a slow job - then make it right!

Get a picture of a nice original Jeffery - copy it - get claw mounts, european scope 1.5-6x, turkish walnut stock with shadow lined cheek peace (high comp for scope use) with red silvers pad, buffalo horn foreend etc.

The only thing I would improve would be a 3-pos dakota style safety.

At least you have a few other guns to bang around in the bakie....

The .404 deserves it!

Forgot about the most important thing: prepear for years of anticipation for the completion and progress of the rifle made.

[ 11-19-2003, 17:00: Message edited by: Daydreamer ]

Make it as original as possible. Keep the charger hump, just open the ears slightly to allow the .404 base to fit thru it. The flag safety is the best there is, just smooth out the contact points so that it flips from vertical to off with ease. The FN left side safety is also great, if you can find one.

PC

Classic all the way. Leave the flag safety and put on a bolt peep. You've got young eyes and you can ruin it later with a scope when you need one. My original Jeffery has a contoured barrel, no step.

If you do it right it will be the only rifle you use for a long time.

I would go English all the way...Have it single or double square bridged, dovetail the bridges for Talleys....Quarter rib or island sight with barrel band swivel and front sight..definatly a drop box magazine..M-70 3-pos.Safty, stright down bolt handle.

Stock should be no cheek piece, have cast off, low comb, leather covered recoil pad, 8" forearm..set up for irons but with scope ability..Remove all excess wood, its not needed...also a bolt peep is a nice addition.I have several of those around here...

I have some photos of ones I built that I could email you if it would help with your planning..Your off to a good start with a great action.

If anyone got some decent detail pictures of cocking piece peep sights (original Rigby or newly made doesn't really matter) I'd be very happy to receive some in my mailbox.
The pictures that is, not the sights. But on second thought, feel free to send me any of those sights you don't need also...

Thanks,

Pettson

Ray,

I would love to see the pictures that would be appreciated.

My head is already exploding...some say keep the flag safety others like ray say add the 3 position, grind the charger off or keep it what do I do who do I listen to

I am consdiering either blackburn or timney trigger.

Also if you leave the charger hump how do you set it up for scope mounts ?? Is that why you would use a claw mount ??

All ideas greatly appreciated.

Ray Bob has made the bottom metal himself (drop box himself) it is integral with the trigger guard and looks so solid. With all the work already done it will be costing me a pretty packet but what the heck hey.....you only live once.

I have to say Ray your partly to blame for this latest expense

You can always take metal off, you can't easily put it back on.

Don't automatically assume that you need a scope. Try it without one first, you'll like it.

If you really wanted a model 70 safety then you would be using a model 70 action. Mauser's design needs very little modification to turn it into a 1st class hunting rifle. The more original it is, the more reliable it is.

Point taken Kurt,

I will be mulling over this for a fair while at any rate, so I have time to really nut it out.

My smith said because your a shooter make it so, but have elemnts of classic, But I am tempted to have one completely classic rifle in the arsenal as I have cz's with composites etc.

He also has a sprinter barrel there already profiled with three steps in the orginal Jeffery format. He feels sprinter barrels are a little rough but he said they shoot really great and thats why he chooses them. But I am tempted to put a lothar Walther on it even if the sprinter shoots as well I will alwys know it's a sprinter if you know what I mean.

Would Lothar Walther offer it in orginal Jeffery Profile ??

PC,
your project sounds like great fun. By all means do it up the way YOU like, as that is the whole piont of a custom gun. The "English Bolt Action Rifles" list at this link may give you some ideas.
http://www.westleyrichards.com/gun/used_guns_2.php
That 505 Gibbs has got all the bells and whistles including the cocking piece sight.
Good luck with your project.

PC,

I have ground the charger hump off several rifles, always ending up wishing I hadn't. Lately I've been wishing I hadn't ground it off my 9.3x62 and put a scope on it -- it just looks like such a classic rifle WITHOUT the scope. It could almost pass for a factory Mauser sporting rifle.

I've decided from this point on if I need a scope on a rifle, I'll buy an ugly-ass modern tupperware rifle and use it without regrets. Or maybe just another barrel for my super-versatile Savage 110.

To each their own, but for me no more charger hump grinding, removing crests from front rings, tapering rear tangs, or replacing safeties. I will concede their is a certain beauty to the lines of a side swing safety though. At least you can keep the original shroud and cocking piece, and flip back and forth if you want.

Todd

[ 11-20-2003, 02:18: Message edited by: Todd Getzen ]

One more thing -- look into re-case hardening that thing! Shame to have all that work into it and run into headspace problems. I have an '09 that developed rather excessive headspace i.e. 18 thousandths, due to lug setback. In the USA, Blanchard will re-case for $75.

Thanks Todd,

I will consider what you have said. The WR sight had some nice looking rifles on it.

If you have a bolt mounted peep do you still have a qtr. rib and do you lose the flaf safety, how does all that work ??

Ray,

I would appreciate it if you could e-mail those pictures to me. I am not planning a 404 right now (I think it may become a requirement for this forum :-) But the looks would carry over to any big bore gun to be styled in the traditional manner. I have a 09 and a stock with a low comb for open sites. has lots of wood left so much shaping can be done.

by the way, sorry to hijack with this one, but what is the deal with the raised side panels on some stocks? the one I have for this 09 has raised side panels on each side and I have seen these a couple of time. anybody got more pictures and some idea of where this stock design originated?

thanks

Red

Original pre-war bolt, tang and side mounted peep sights were designed to be used in conjunction with the rear barrel sight. Looking thru an aperature helps eliminate the problems encountered when trying to clearly see three focal planes at once. The M-S peeps even had two settings, to match the two leaves of the rear sight.

All were designed so that they can be retracted or folded for bolt operation or storage. The bolt mounted peeps make using all three positions of the flag safety difficult when the peep is in the raised position. The FN safety works best in that condition.

Dago Red,

I believe the raised side panels were originally developed when folks started using larger chamberings in standard rifles. The side panels gave extra support to the toothpick style stocks of the period. They still look great on slender European stocks, but look out of place on the thicker American ones.

[ 11-20-2003, 03:27: Message edited by: KurtC ]

Bolt Peep .404 Jeffery by Jeffery

Down



Up



In Up position lines up through standing leaf to front bead. Dead on at 100 yards.

I replace original trigger with a Timney that doesn't move the sight when being pulled.

PC,
Want to complicate your life, the go with a Griffen and Howe detachable mount, that leaves the top of the receiver clear for the peep or irons...Mickey posted picture that look like the same ones I have...

I love the old side mts. on a DGR..but a good set of fitted claws is pretty hard to beat...

A scope calls for a M-70 Safty and a lower bolt handle, I would do this. I will send you some photos...

Here is a cocking piece peep on a 333 Jeffery, and a 375 Jeffery showing a typical British type step in the barrel in the chamber area. Leave the flag safety and charger hump. Go classic. Enjoy for many years .

Jim

Thanks Folks,

I am thinking (at this point) maybe one of my rifles should be classic. Can classic just be a qtr rib with one standind and a couple of folding leaves ??

I have other rifles which are scoped etc.

All ideas greatly appreciated although you all are confusing me

Mickey and all,

could you very kind gentlemen post some close ups of the cocking piece peeps. I want to get a better idea for how the mechanism works.

thanks guys

Red

I'll make a prediction here PC....I bet you'll get all excited over this project and make a start with it within the next 3 months None of this

quote:

---

This project will be a slow one, I intend to layaway the action, then barrel

---

Bakes

Bakes,

even if I do get a rush of blood Bob said there was "no chance of starting before his Africa Trip" so I am shit out of luck

In all seriousness I want to make this one right so a little thinking time will be fine.

At the risk of being repetitious I will post links back to the threads for my .404 Jeffery project (awaiting bottom metal)...
Topic: Using Aperture and Express sights...
Topic: .404 Jeffery reamer and gauges...

My vote goes for "CLASSIC" all the way. I also have one of the TomD sights for mine. Flag safety and retaining the charger hump too albeit modified for the .404 J cartridge. Mine also wears a PME express sight sleeve and will have an NECG 3+1 (1 standing milled off) due to the use of a cocking piece sight.

Here's another picture of an original Jeffery rifle in .404 Jeffery...
Jeffery rifle in .404 Jeffery

...also an original H&H rifle w/ cocking piece sight
H&H Mauser

...and Yes Ray it is looking like it will probably wear a nice english walnut stick! Entirely too much FUN!
Jeff P

[ 11-26-2003, 10:54: Message edited by: Pfeifer ]

Pfeifer,

I will most likely go classic all though I am confused at how the coking piece peep and express sights work together should it not be one or the other

It can be one or the other, but they were originally designed to use both. When peep sights first came out (before WWI and prior to scopes), they were an optical aid to limit the amount of light entering the pupil. This allowed you to see the barrel sights more clearly. Much like the little aperatures that target shooters attach to their eyeglasses.

Eventually someone realized that looking thru the peep also increased ones speed for bringing the rifle on target. Between the wars the military adopted the peep and it soon became the method on which millions were taught.

If you do not have access to a rifle with an original peep, such as a Mannlicher-Schoenauer,
try looking at you barrel sights thru some sort of small aperature. You will be amazed at the clarity. I have even seen nearsighted folks shoot high scores without their eyeglasses, just by looking thru a peep.

No, you can have both...I do.

I cut the one standing off flush, then use the two down to sight in at 50 and 100 yards...My bolt peep is sighted 2" high at 100 yards..by cutting off the one standing I have three usualble iron sights, nothing can go wrong unless I knock off the front, but I have another one of those in my grip cap...and with a G&H side mount I have a scope and a clean receiver. A tidy package.

The other option is just use a Receiver sight and skip the barrel mounted rear sight and/or quarter rib..Great on a using rifle..A receiver sight will replace a scope for the distances a 404 will be effective and thats 300 yards max. IMO.

PC,
I was told by a local gunsmith who had been 'smithing for years that he liked to use an aperture with his buckhorn sight as well. Looking at the english guns however I see that there is usually no standing sight on the express sight. I have several of John Taylor's books - the little black one, Big Game and Big Game Rifles and also his African Rifles & Cartridges. He talks in depth about cocking piece sights (aperture backsights) and says that they should be standard on any Mauser bolt rifle - that is how much he believed in them. One consideration however is obstructing more of your target when using the express sight - an advantage of the rear aperture sights. I'd think this alone would make an aperture sight a better choice for shots on running game. Better you read it for yourself than trust my memory though. That Jeffery rifle in .404J link shows the same - no standing sight.

Certainly no harm in leaving the standing sight in place and trying it before milling it off - see for yourself what you like. I spoke with Mark Cromwell at NECG about this and this is what he said that they do when they need an all folding leaf sight.
Hope this has been of some help...and by all means, post pictures of your project

Jeff P

[ 11-27-2003, 11:04: Message edited by: Pfeifer ]

Thanks folks,

I will get pics when the project begins.

I am very busy at the moment sorting out a move etc.

I think I remember reading in one of Jack O'Connor's books about a hunter who had taken his wife on a hunting trip.

I don't know what shooting/hunting experience she had, but the story was that she was taking an uphill shot at some type of game with a mauser rifle that had a bolt peep sight. At the shot, the rifle recoiled back and the bolt peep hit her in the eye. She ended up losing her eye. I don't remember the article exactly, but I think the rifle was chambered in a 30-06 class caliber.

Now, I can live with a cut over my eyebrow from a scope, but I like being able to see out of both eyes. Also, I'm sure a 404 Jeffrey recoils a bit more than a 30-06 class caliber. My PH in Zim says that most of the first-aid he has to perform each season is putting a butterfly bandage on an eyebrow cut by a scope.

Probably a rare occurance, but something to keep in mind.

Tim

Shumba now that is interesting. I would have thought that to be impossible, but I suppose stranger things have happened. May be worth adding a thread devoted to this topic to see what others think.

I will try to review my O'Connor books to see if I can find the exact details. Then I will start a new post.

Tim

Tim looking forwards to hearing more on this.

PC,

I finally found the story in one of my O'Connor books. In the case of the women losing her eye, he said it was from a tang peep sight. He also mentioned that it was an extreme uphill shot and he might have added that stock may have been shorter.

I am at work right now and do not have the book on hand. I will try to scan the page or type what he said exactly.

He does talk about the bolt peep sight and had some interesting things to say about them. I do remember that he thought them to be a bit safer because the bolt moves away from your eye when you pull the trigger, just before recoil. He also mentioned that it may be the least accurate way to mount a peep sight but that it should be fine for big game hunting.

Tim

Here are some close-ups of Holland's type bolt peep. Tom Delucchi makes them on a limited basis.

Hello PC. I am no expert but I had a 404 made last year and took it to Africa this year and would like to share my thoughts. I chose a simple and straight forward rifle with a side mount and flag safety.


In retrospect I would make the following changes on my rifle:
1.only one shallow V rear sight; the extra 200 and 300 yds flip ups are totaly useless. They come up at the wrong time. if you have to shoot further down range than 100 yds, aim a little higher; it works on the range.
2. The rear sight should be more to the rear, closer to the reciever.
3. Im not sure about the scope at all.. It's simpler without one.

Boha

[ 12-02-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: boha ]

Roger,
Do you have contact info for Tom Delucchi or a price range?
jeffe

Boha

Your .404 looks like a well made and practical rifle. I'm jealous and covetous(is that a word).

I agree with your advice with what you would change on your rifle as well. Big bore rifles should be simple and indestructable.