My question is this: how "safe" is a 400 whelen that doesn't have the blown out shoulder.

I know that the original 400 whelen had the shoulder blown out to .455 or so, instead of the std 30-06 of .44x. I just finished reading the lengthly 400 whelen thread on this forum - very informative and understand the history of the 400 Whelen.

I am seriously condsidering getting a 400 whelen that uses the standard 30-06 dimension. Is doing so a bad idea? If safe, and being available at less cost, why not?

Thanks,
Phil

It wouldn't save any money . And it wouldn't be as reliable. There are smiths that have a he correct reamer . What action would you build it on ?

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Is doing so a bad idea? If safe, and being available at less cost, why not

Head spacing on WHAT? How is it any cheaper? You can use the same brass for either one.

I do believe the original had the shoulder blown out to .458 like the current ones. The gun mags lost that fact and started trashing the 400 Whelen because of the smaller dia shoulder and nothing to headspace on.

A 30-06 is basically .441 at the body shoulder junction. A 400 neck will be basically .441 OD.

Again I really confused as to what you want and why. Dies, reamer brass all available for the correct 400W. Dies for sure cheaper than having new customs made. If you don't want headspace brass then simply use 06 brass.

quote:

Originally posted by PRW:
...
I am seriously condsidering getting...

Can you please expound on what you mean by "getting"? Having built? Or acquiring in trade, or buying an existing gun? Clarification will help those others who know best point you in the correct direction.

The proper reamer is available to rent, now, so any given `smith could probably set-back and correct a suspicious rifle.
4D Petrov

Good Luck with your project.

The action is a 50's FN mauser, rebored to 400 Whelen, cost at least half of a rebarrel. I'm aware that its not the best choice, but is the shoulder of .441 dangerous? What has been the experience with these as no doubt quite a few have been built this way?

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.441 dangerous

The issue of whether or not the .441 shoulder was enough to headspace has been beat to death for a LONG TIME. I for one don't like or trust it. I wouldn't use it that way.

As wookie76 said the proper reamer is available for rent as well as proper dies for sale. You could probably get by without setting the barrel back. Even better 1 turn. Spend a few $$ and do it right and then you don't have to wonder. being able to buy semi custom dies vs custom would probably pay for the reamer.

Your going to have to run a chamber reamer in it anyway. Might as well be the correct reamer. . I don't know any other way to do it. . The barrel can be rebored and re rifled to 410-411 but it will still need a chamber reamer run in.

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Your going to have to run a chamber reamer in it anyway. Might as well be the correct reamer

I couldn't figure if the rifle had already been bored or if he thought he could simply rebore using the old 06 chamber. A reamer will be needed to cut the neck and throat if it hasn't already been cut.

I simply can't stress enough DO IT RIGHT!!! Cheaper and happier in the long run/

I am a bit confused. Do you already have a rifle that has been rebored to 400 Whelen or are you planning to have the rifle rebored.

If you already have a rifle that's been rebored, how do you know it's only a 30-06 chamber with a bored out barrel? Have you cast the chamber? Even if it was rebored 40 years ago I would bet it's one of the correct versions of the 400.

If you are looking at having the rifle rebored, any of the current guys doing rebore work should have either a standard 400 Whelen (.458 shoulder), 400 Brown Whelen (.461 shoulder) or a 411 Hawk reamer, if not all three and the chambering should be included in the price of the rebore.

In fact it would be more expensive to get a set of dies made and a reamer cut for a 411/30-06 with no changes to the case than to have one of the currently available chamberings cut. I don't know of anyone offering such a reamer or reloading dies.

CH4D offers the correct dies for 400 and 400 Brown and they are very affordable. I'll echo the other comments that you should do it right. You won't save any money on the version you suggest and will most likely be sorely disappointed. The standard 400 Whelen is a great cartridge, easy to load for and wonderfully effective.

Please don't take it that we r all ganging up on you. I'm probably the only replier to this thread that Does Not have a 400 Whelan or similar yet. From what I've seen , Everyone that has one is wildly enthusiastic about their rifle and the cartridge. But, they have all used the correct reamer and dies. As far as useable, cost effective big bores go , the 400 Whelan is king of the hill. Resize Speer 350 gr bullets in a Lee .410 sizing die. Fire form 30/06 brass and load up and go hunting. For N.A. heavy and dangerous game at point blank range to 300 yards. What could be better.

Thanks for the replies. Apparently the main problem with the version with the std 30-06 shoulder is the possibility of a strong firing pin strike to collapse the shoulder and creating excessive head space. I will not go with a version using the std 30-06 shoulder.

Do an internet search for 400 Whelen and Micheal Petrov. He did a couple of articles that thoroughly explain the 400 Whelen. It is my opinion that the version you refer to, a standard 30-06 expanded to .411 and keeping the .441 shoulder never existed except in the minds of a few gun writers who never owned, shot or hunted with a 400 Whelen. There are lots of gun myths that have been perpetuated by gun writers that simply were never true. Read Micheal's work. It ought to be required reading for anyone contemplating a 400 Whelen.

quote:

Originally posted by PRW:
Thanks for the replies. Apparently the main problem with the version with the std 30-06 shoulder is the possibility of a strong firing pin strike to collapse the shoulder and creating excessive head space. I will not go with a version using the std 30-06 shoulder.

That's one of the myths I referred to in my last post. If you have a firing pin spring strong enough to force a round forward in the chamber and collapse a shoulder, you have a firing pin that would be piercing every primer it touched.

I tried super annealing a few cases and placing them in front of the extractor. I was not able to change the dimensions of the case at all. The extractor would pop over the rim before the shoulder moved on my cases. I really do not believe a firing pin spring can drive a case forward with enough force to alter a case. If that were the case you would be hearing about it with other rounds and I never have.

quote:

That's one of the myths I referred to in my last post. If you have a firing pin spring strong enough to force a round forward in the chamber and collapse a shoulder, you have a firing pin that would be piercing every primer it touched.

I "believe" Michael made the statement that he had read reports that the firing pin drove the case forward. That is not his conclusion as I remember his article.

The major issue I see with a basic 06 simply necked to 411 is what actually stops the case. You are relying on the tapered sides of the case body to define headspace. Yes if the case was a perfect fit it would stop in the same place every time. Hard to get reliable feeding in that tight of a case. Heck most won't use a neck sized only case for hunting this case would be worse. So you resize now the case wants to move forward what stops it? So then does someone claim the firing pin moved the case forward?

In a CRF the extractor might hold the case. In something like the M700 does closing the bolt and forcing the extractor over the rim jam the case forward?

Still curious as to the original plan and situation but seems like it is on the right path.

Time for a and reread Petrov.

Have a good one.

PRW if you don't have a copy of the article we can get you one. A must read if you are considering a 400 Whelen.

I've had misfire problems in my Petrov spec chambered .400 with over-annealed brass but only the first shot after annealing and only when slamming the bolt home. The case shoulder was visibly set back and smoothened. The solution was to run the super soft case back over the expander used to make it cylindrical the first time and then run it through the FL sizer again. After that, no problems.

I'm typically resizing with my CH4D ".400WhelenG&H" dies backed off 1/4 turn and with brass that has been properly annealed and fire formed, misfires due to shoulder setback has gone away.

Hypothetically, I'd prefer the Brown version or RIP's Whelen-Berry but the Petrov/G&H version is working just fine when treated properly and probably the most common and most practical version (from what I gather...)

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Hypothetically, I'd prefer the Brown version or RIP's Whelen-Berry

My shoulder is .46. Don't know how much if any it gains me over a .458. I start with cylinder brass so I don't anneal. I have some brass that has bee used 5-6 times. I will pay attention when I anneal it.

quote:

I "believe" Michael made the statement that he had read reports that the firing pin drove the case forward. That is not his conclusion as I remember his article.

The major issue I see with a basic 06 simply necked to 411 is what actually stops the case. You are relying on the tapered sides of the case body to define headspace. Yes if the case was a perfect fit it would stop in the same place every time. Hard to get reliable feeding in that tight of a case. Heck most won't use a neck sized only case for hunting this case would be worse. So you resize now the case wants to move forward what stops it? So then does someone claim the firing pin moved the case forward?

I have read Michael's article. He stated that he had heard of instances of the firing pin strike upsetting the headspace for the chamber using the .441 (or so) case shoulder. As far as I can tell, he didn't state exactly what the problem with the narrow shoulder is, but proceeded to outline what the original shoulder was as designed by Whelen (that used less taper in the case).

In searching the internet I've not come across any documented situation where the narrow shoulder resulted in an accident. It is logical that a wider shoulder would be safer, and the better way to go.

Apparently the reloading die set offered by CH4D listed as "400 Whelen" uses the standard 30-06 shoulder since 4 other offerings are listed as "400 Whelen Improved" versions? If this is the case, then it appears that there are rifles in existence that use the standard 30-06 shoulder dimension.

The logical conclusion: A "genuine 400 Whelen" would be the "Petrov" version!!

Give them a call but the 4 different variations of 400 they list are all for "improved cases" but with different shoulder angles and diameters. Mine are the standard 400 Whelen and are marked as such. They are for the original/Petrov version with the .458 shoulder. I don't think any of their offerings are for a .441 shoulder but call them to be sure. They are great folks to deal with.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:
Do an internet search for 400 Whelen and Micheal Petrov. He did a couple of articles that thoroughly explain the 400 Whelen. It is my opinion that the version you refer to, a standard 30-06 expanded to .411 and keeping the .441 shoulder never existed except in the minds of a few gun writers who never owned, shot or hunted with a 400 Whelen. There are lots of gun myths that have been perpetuated by gun writers that simply were never true. Read Micheal's work. It ought to be required reading for anyone contemplating a 400 Whelen.

Mart I think you hit the nail on the head.
I've not had any difficulties with my 400 Whelen at all. I was fortunate enough to borrow Michael Petrov's reamer for my rifle and ordered dies from CH4D. Die box says 400 Whelen
The die bodies are stamped 400 Whelen G&H.
Mine operates absolutely flawless.

quote:

I don't think any of their offerings are for a .441 shoulder but call them to be sure.

It has been a while since I chatted with them about it but at the time they didn't have a.441 version.

I'm glad this thread with its questions and replies came up. The 22 pages of the Original thread have the same info, but its kinda easy to get lost in the data without careful study and note taking. . At least for my brain.
PWS, how do you anneal your brass? Do you hold it in your fingers, rotate it in a pan on a lazy suzan type affair, use an Anneal Rite or with that big 600$ annealing machine?
The reason I ask is how soft does the brass/shoulder get?

No doubt, the case needs enough taper for reliable extraction but little enough so the shoulder is large enough diameter for reliable head spacing. The parralel sided neck of RIP's design sounds like a good idea also.
Not criticizing anyone's case, or rifle. Just brain storming here.

That's it!!!

I've got to have a 400 whelen,,,,, as my wife put me on a rifle quota I'll trade-off my Old Ugly clone on Alaska Gun traders as soon as our travel is reliable. Maybe a 411 hawk as I have their manual and it looks good!

Don't u have some old 30 caliber something u could unload for a great 400 .

quote:

Maybe a 411 hawk as I have their manual and it looks good!

Take a close look at Hawk data. Normally long barrels and light bullets. A Hawk gains you nothing over a proper Whelen.

Dealing with Z-Hat can be an on/off experience. Very difficult to contact, poor follow-up.

The Hawk shoulder is a touch forward but the Whelen has less taper and longer case. The hawks started as 9.3x62 brass and were switched to 06 because it was easier to fine. I call them equal.


I just tried to order 100 cylinder brass. CC was billed instantaneously. Then after 3 weeks of nothing tried to contact them. No phone number, nor real email. Finally contacted 4-D (his rental arm). Got an email saying they only had 60 and had no clue if they would have more. I said send them and refund the difference. Had to pay for the 60 then file with my CC on the original order to get a refund.

If you want a Hawk go for it. The Whelen will do everything the Hawk does. Plus offers you other supply options and MUCH more actual load data..

In case anyone has the need Qual Cartridge has 400 Whelen headstamped basic brass (cylinder) in stock I just checked.
I know that doesn't help you Paul because it is only 2.55" long and I think you need something longer for your PDK's.
At one time they had 280 cylinder brass that was longer but I can't find it on their new and improved website.
Waterrat listen to Ramrod, the stories of poor service through the whole Hawk show go on and on. Stay with a basic 400 Whelen. Ramrods PDK has a capacity advantage if you are trying to get more out of it then go that route.
If you have any old 30/06 laying around you are a rebarrel away from a 400 rifle. Maybe a re bore if you have enough thickness on the barrel.
Have fun!

The 400 Whelen has been around forever, and I have known more than a few fellows that had them and they never had any problems..I had one in the 1950s and shot it a lot without any problems..It just doesn't take much shoulder to be safe. I did build one on a 9.3x62 and liked it a lot, but at the time 9.3x62 brass was hard to come by so I sold it.

Recently since 9.3x62 brass is readily available I built a 375x9.3x62 and it was a fine caliber and close to the 375 H&H. Worked up all the load data for it,played with it a lot then sold it.

The 400 Whelen subject has been beat to death by gunfolk, who speculate on a subject of which they have no real knowledge, none of which probably ever owned or shot a 400 Whelen..Its a fine caliber.

quote:

I know that doesn't help you Paul because it is only 2.55" long and I think you need something longer for your PDK's.At one time they had 280 cylinder brass that was longer but I can't find it on their new and improved website.

Thanks for the info. I have right at 180 cases, 60 unformed 60 fired 1time and 60 5 loads +. In addition I have 200 Howell basic. The howell works for me because I have a 3 die set with a separate expander. I think RIP and crew tried howell but the web area caused them issues with their expander/deprimer. (I think)

The 400 Whelen stamped brass would work (I think) would need to get them side by side. I think there would be enough neck just would lose the cannelure option.

I'll try to remember to bring some when we meet for breakfast tomorrow. I have one of your PDK dummies to compare it too.

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I have one of your PDK dummies to compare it too

That is where all my brass goes.

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...PWS, how do you anneal your brass? Do you hold it in your fingers, rotate it in a pan on a lazy suzan type affair, use an Anneal Rite or with that big 600$ annealing machine?
The reason I ask is how soft does the brass/shoulder get?

Twirled in fingers in propane torch flame. I was letting it get RED hot before dipping in water to cool for convenience sake. It wasn't that difficult to crush the case mouths afterwards. I have since learned that red hot is about twice the temp necessary for STRESS RELIEVEING the necks.

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I have since learned that red hot is about twice the temp necessary

I stole this from a Ken Howell article. If you aren't using the temperature crayons......


Clean and polish them so you can see when the brass changes color with the steep heat you’re going to turn on them. Killing the polish with too much heat tells you you’ve gotten the case too hot.

Quick, uniform, consistent application of high heat is the key to good annealing. When the brass around the mouth reaches a temperature of about 660 to 665 degrees Fahrenheit, its surface becomes light blue. This is as hot as you want to let it get. If you let the color run too far toward the other end of the case, you can ruin the head by making it too soft. If you let the color on the neck go beyond light blue, and the shine disappears, you’re on the edge of ruining the case, and you may already have gone too far. If you let the case get red, it’s a goner.

Having almost blown off a finger annealing brass in my fingers I'm planning on getting an Anneal Rite. For around a hunnert bucks it an easy way to get consistent neck tension and keep necks from splitting. And by using the Tempelaq you can get the temp just right in the neck and shoulder.

quote:

Having almost blown off a finger annealing brass in my fingers

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Having almost blown off a finger annealing brass in my fingers I'm planning on getting an Anneal Rite.

You do know you're not supposed to anneal loaded ammo.

and be sure and take out the hot primers!

It was a fired case but some powder had got spilled in the action packer tote that I used to keep all my reloading gear ect in . I was annealing 8 mm Rem Mag brass to neck up to 416 .

It was a hard month for that finger. I had just got it down to 1 bandaid after it grew back from having the fingernail and most of the tip including the end of the bone cut off on a table saw.
Anyway, I'm pretty darn careful now when I anneal brass .

Keep losing those parts and shooting will soon be a thing of the past!

I use a battery powered screw driver on slow to heat brass..I use Temp or a crayon, guess work on a case can be terrible hard on rifles and rifle actions!

I'm surprised that this thread is back to the top. Since it's still active, here's an update concerning my quest for a 400 Whelen.

I sent my FN mauser in to be rebored and chambered to 400 Whelen, Petrov version. The gunsmith ordered the reamer from somewhere. In the meantime I ordered a reloading die set from CH4d - 400 Whelen G&H. This set has the .458 shoulder diameter I was expecting to match the reamer.

I received the rifle back last week. The first thing was to run several Qual Cart 400 Whelen (cyl brass) through the die. I seated a .411 Hornady bullet and found that it would not chamber.

When ordering the bullets I also included a package of 35 whelen brass. After fireforming the 35 whelen brass to my chamber I found that the actual shoulder diameter to be .4565 instead of .458. I also found that the shoulder stops at ~.198 inches instead of 2.0x. Apparently the reamer used has the dimension closer to what Col Whelen indicated in his report on the cartridge and what has been posted in detail on this forum. The Petrov dwg has the somewhat larger shoulder dimension(.458 vs. .455).

I do not know the source of the reamer that was used on my rifle.

These are the reasons why qual cart brass would not chamber after passing through the G&H sizing die. In order to use this brass, I have to leave a gap between the shell holder and the die, run the case through the sizing die, then use a 30-06 sizing die to reduce the shoulder dia and fireform.

It appears that by fireforming brass I have a workable situation, however, I would not be able to use the G&H die if the body taper becomes too tight to chamber after a few reloads.

Such are the adventures of wildcatting.

Phil

Ask your "smith" for the drawing or dimensions of your reamer. You can obtain a copy from CH4D to compare your dies to the reamer. It sounds like the problem lies in the reamer used for your project not in some inherit problem with the 400 Whelen.
For my project I got the drawing of the reamer to be used in my project and sent that to CH4D and they matched it up with the dies I ordered which were the 400 Whelen G&H.
When using Qual brass it must be judiciously trimmed down to an overall length around 2.5"
Did you trim your new brass? If not then it will not chamber when loaded.
Finding out the reamer dimensions and matching it to compatable dies is essential to your success.
I'm not experiencing any adventures in wildcatting with my setup.