Fella's
I've seen pics of F.C. Selous's 4 bore but does any have a pic of Sir Samuel Baker's 4 Bore Baby that was originally thought to have been a 2 Bore?
Thanks and take care!
Chris

CJO:
One photo of Selous' 4-bore has also be shown to be Baker's 4. Probably the fact has been lost to time. Which ever owned it, it was a kicker--either with Selous double charge or Baker's 3500-grain explosive bullet with 10 to 16 drams of powder!

Some photos have a metal plate over the wrist and another has elephant hide over the wrist.

My book on the bore rifles will be out this fall and will have lots of detail of both hunters (and dozens more).
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by CJO:
"originally" thought to have been a 2 Bore?

Huh?

quote:

_______________________________

J.Brown, in the days past, most bigger bore rifles were not of an exact true bore size. Alot of true 4 bore sized guns were labeled as 2 bores, and the labeled 4 bores were in reality closer to 6 bores. At least thats the way I understand it. Somebody jump in if I am wrong. thanks

Bigdoggy2bore

Yes Sir, That's how I understood it also!
Now to only see a pic or two of the Baker's Baby!

I thank you for you input Sir.

Also, I can't wait to see pics of your finished double 2 Bore and hopefully a couple more pics of the 2 Bore pistol, maybe from the muzzle end!

I wrote to Colin but I didn't want to keep bothering him and take him away from your work.

Thanks for your time Bigdoggy2bore!!!
Chris

Always glad to share information with someone on the forum. We are never too old to learn something new everyday.

Fellas:
Generally speaking 4-bores have the same exterior case dimensions. The mark of a 4 over a C within a diamond means 4-bore chamber. (Not 4-bore choke as many have written in the past). These rifles were made before any standardization of bore size. As it was impossible to have a 4-bore case made of paper and a true 4-bore diameter (1.052") the bore diameter with the thick-walled paper case was generally a 5-bore or approximately .970". Some were as small as 6-bore or .919" (approximately) and, of course, there is some variation in those numbers. To add confusion to the matter, most 4s were proofed as 6s as a 6-bore ball would freely move down the bore.

The bore sizes continued with brass cases in the later 1800s--keeping a rather thick wall for the case.

Baker wrote of his 4-bore, not by naming it as a 4 but by stating the rifle shot a half pound, or 8-ounce, projectile. Many past writers incorrectly (but understandably) thought the rifle was a 2-bore. It was not. A true 2-bore would have a ball of 3500 grains. Baker wrote of and described the explosive projectile as an elongated bullet. If a 2-bore, and elongated as such, the weight would have exceeded 3500 grains, or 8 ounces, by a good margin.

Baker writes of firing his rifle with 10 drams of black powder. Sometimes stating 16 drams. I tell you from personal experience when I shoot my 4-bore double (Robert Hughes) the recoil is fine with Blue Dot (100-120 grains with a ball and 75-90 grains with a 1950-grain conical). It is a different story with FFg GOEX! 16 drams with a ball of 1400 grains (a true 5-bore with a 6-bore proof) the recoil is about as much as one can tolerate. Far worse than my .600 nitro express double. Shooting a conical with the correct charge of 14 drams or 390 grains is about unbearable. The rifle weighs 22 pounds.

A true 2-bore would not be possible to control the recoil and the weight of the rifle would not be able to shouldered.

Folks like to stretch the truth a bit. My rifle was owned by Maynard Buehler (of scope mount fame). In the December 1959 issue of the American Rifleman he stated this rifle was the World's Most Powerful Rifle as it shot 550 grains of black powder (20 drams) and a bullet of 2400 grains!

You can read a good bit about Baker and many other in my upcoming book on the bore rifles. Should be here in less than two months as it is at the printer now. Over 100 bore rifles photographed and lots of info. 416 pages.

Sorry for the ramble.
Cal

Gentlemen,

An extract from Sir Samuel Baker's "Wild Beast's & their ways"

"The elephant requires not only a special rifle, but the strongest ammunition that can be used without injury to the shooter by recoil. It
is impossible to advocate any particular size of rifle, as it must depend upon the strength of the possessor. As a rule I do not approve of
shells, as they are comparatively useless if of medium calibre, and can be only effective when sufficiently large to contain a destructive
bursting charge. I have tried several varieties of shells with unsatisfactory results, excepting the half-pounder, which contained a bursting charge of 8 drams of the finest grained powder.

This pattern was my own invention, as I found by experience that the general defect of shells was the too immediate explosion upon impact.
This would cause extensive damage to the surface, but would fail in penetration.

Picrate of potash was at one time supposed to combine an enormous explosive power with perfect safety in carriage, as the detonating
shells were proof against the blow of a hammer, and would only explode upon impact through the extreme velocity of their discharge from a
rifle-barrel. These were useless against an elephant, as they had no power of penetration, and the shell destroyed itself by bursting upon
the hard skin. I tried these shells against trees, but although the bark
would be shattered over an extensive area, upon every occasion the projectile failed to penetrate the wood, as it had ceased to exist upon explosion on the surface.

My half-pound shell was exceedingly simple. A cast-iron bottle, similar in shape to a German seltzer-water, formed the core, around which the
lead was cast. The neck of the iron bottle projected through the pointed cone of the projectile, and formed a nipple to receive the
percussion-cap. In external appearance the shell was lead, the iron bottle being concealed within. Half an ounce of the finest grained
powder was inserted through the nipple by means of a small funnel; this formed the bursting charge. The cap was only adjusted previous to
loading, as a necessary precaution. This half-pound shell was propelled by a charge of 16 drams of coarse-grained powder.

I never fired this rifle without killing the animal, but the weapon could not be claimed as a pleasant companion, the recoil being terrific.
The arrangement of the cap upon a broad-mouthed nipple prevented the instantaneous explosion that would have taken place with a picrate of
potash shell. A fraction of a second was required to explode the cap upon impact, and for the cap to ignite the bursting charge; this allowed sufficient time for the shell to penetrate to the centre of an elephant
before the complete ignition had taken place. The destruction occasioned by the half-ounce of powder confined within the body of an elephant may be imagined.

I tried this shell at the forehead of a hippopotamus, which was an admirable test of penetration before bursting. It went through the
brain, knocked out the back of the skull, and exploded within the neck, completely destroying the vertebrae of the spine, which were reduced to pulp, and perforating a tunnel blackened with gunpowder several feet in length, along which I could pass my arm to the shoulder. The terminus of the tunnel contained small fragments of lead and iron, pieces of which were found throughout the course of the explosion."

The book is in the public domain.

Dear Cal & Esskay,

Thank you both for all your info & input on this!
The old Bore Rifles were most fascinating...and Colin's build for Bigdoggy2bore is extremely exciting to follow!!

Take care Fella's!!!
Chris

Cal, Colin Stolzer is building a true 2 bore double rifle for me right now. As I wanted think 30" barrels, the gun is going to be in the 44lb weight range. With tapered barrels and 22" barrels,the weight would still be heavy, but much lighter. My Ken Owen 4 bore is 1.052" diameter and shoots a 2000 grain bullet with 116 grains of blue dot. With its weight of 24 lbs, it is quite easy to shoot. You can shoulder it but not forever to get a shot on target. The 2 bore will shoot 3500 grain balls out of a brass cartridge.

quote:

The destruction occasioned by the half-ounce of powder confined within the body of an elephant may be imagined.

I tried this shell at the forehead of a hippopotamus, which was an admirable test of penetration before bursting. It went through the
brain, knocked out the back of the skull, and exploded within the neck, completely destroying the vertebrae of the spine, which were reduced to pulp, and perforating a tunnel blackened with gunpowder several feet in length, along which I could pass my arm to the shoulder.

How could anyone not love Baker?

Bob

All super info provided by everyone with many Thanks from me but...........

Does anyone have a pic of Baker's 4 Bore they might post here?

Thank you all again very much!
Chris

Omnivorous Bob:
That quote from Baker you cited above reminds me of a month and a half ago. A mate and myself were down under and if you substitute donkey for hippo in the quote it fits this great hunter friend of mine quite well. I think he and Baker are cast from the same mould--both hunting with 4-bore singles.
Cal

Gentlemen,

Here you are. 8 of Sir Samuel's books available for free, legal download.

Incredible human being!

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebook...y=Samuel+White+Baker


Regards

Thank you very much Esskay!
Chris

quote:

Omnivorous Bob:
That quote from Baker you cited above reminds me of a month and a half ago. A mate and myself were down under and if you substitute donkey for hippo in the quote it fits this great hunter friend of mine quite well. I think he and Baker are cast from the same mould--both hunting with 4-bore singles.
Cal

Cal, your friend sounds like a man of class and taste, a true sportsman, gentleman, and scholar. I could only hope to have the privilege of meeting him one day!

One a serious note, Baker has always been my favorite hunting writer from the 19th century.

Bob

Omnivorous Bob:
He is, indeed. A man of wealth and taste, professional, family man, mature far beyond his years, one of the founding members of PETA, and one of Obama's leading fund raisers.
Let's shoot one more time before the snow files.
Cheers,
Cal

Not much help but the only image I could find on Google:

Fla3006,
Thank you very much for this Sir! I could not find anything when I checked????
Take care,
Chris