First of all thanks for the forum. I have been a reader for a couple of months and have some questions....hence my ID.
Here is why I am severely confuse:
After catching up and reading various posts I have come to these conclusions that makes me think that double rifles are sheer magic.
If you have a 450/400, shooting a 400 gr. bullet at around 2150 fps, it has been stated that it is a great cartridge, even for elephant. Now if you put a 400 gr, bullet in a 404J or a 416 Rigby, at that velocity, then it is anemic, needs to be pushed to at least 2400 fps+...so why is the same basic bullet, give or take .010 in diameter, so much better in a double?
Question 2...no one seems to ever put a scope on any double over .400 caliber when they hunt Africa...but if you DON'T have scope on your bolt action rifle you stand a good chance of the PH sending you packing, so the question is, why do you need a scope on a big bore bolt action rifle when shooting at elephant or cape buffalo, yet it is completely unnecessary if you have a double?
Question 3....this has to do with accuracy...if you have a double that shoots inside 2 in. at 50 yards with both barrels, you have a great shooting double that is ready for any dangerous game hunt, (as long as it is a suitable caliber). Now if your bolt action big bore won't shoot MOA at 100 yards, and preferebly smaller groups, then you should take the gun apart, use the barreled action as a tomato plant stick, use the stock as kindling, because the gun is worthless.
Again, I am SEVERELY CONFUSED as to the "double standard" (pun intended!) when it comes to bolt vs. double. Looking forward to some opinions.

Bob

Welcome. Answers:

1. The .404 Jeffery is a fine and well-established DG caliber when loaded to its original specs, 400/410 grain bullet at 2,150 fps or so. The .416 Rigby is hotter in its factory loading, and pushes the same weight bullet as the .404, but slightly smaller in diameter (.416 vs. .423) to 2,370 fps. No one with any brains and experience would ever call a .404 or a .416 anemic.

2. A scope is not needed on any dangerous game rifle.* Shots are close, generally under 100 yards, and ideally much closer, sometimes inside 20 yards. Still, some prefer a scope because it's what they're used to using, or because they like the finer sighting that it makes possible, or because their eyes are not as sharp as they once were. For such people, the scope would be as desirable, if not necessary, on a double as on a bolt rifle.

3. Two inches at 50 yards is plenty good enough for any dangerous game rifle, whether a double or a bolt action. Better than that is simply not necessary. That is not to say that better is not more desirable.

Common sense on this subject as on many others is not so common anymore but is still a good arbiter.

*Edited to add: Other than lion and leopard under some or even usual circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Pond:


If you have a 450/400, shooting a 400 gr. bullet at around 2150 fps, it has been stated that it is a great cartridge, even for elephant.

I would like to distance myself from the crowd by stating that IMO it is marginal for elephant even though it will work.

quote:

Question 2...no one seems to ever put a scope on any double over .400 caliber when they hunt Africa...but if you DON'T have scope on your bolt action rifle you stand a good chance of the PH sending you packing, so the question is, why do you need a scope on a big bore bolt action rifle when shooting at elephant or cape buffalo, yet it is completely unnecessary if you have a double?

I do not want a scope on either a bolt or a double for hunting ele or buff.

quote:

Question 3....this has to do with accuracy...if you have a double that shoots inside 2 in. at 50 yards with both barrels, you have a great shooting double that is ready for any dangerous game hunt, (as long as it is a suitable caliber). Now if your bolt action big bore won't shoot MOA at 100 yards, and preferebly smaller groups, then you should take the gun apart, use the barreled action as a tomato plant stick, use the stock as kindling, because the gun is worthless.

I think that if you can hit a basketball at 25 yards offhand, you are ready to hunt elephant and buff. It's fun to get a big bore to shoot clover leaf groups from the bench but not necessary.

I consider the 404 and 450-400 equal up to 100 yards or so with the edge going to the 404.I consider both enough gun for elephant. I believe the .375 is enough for elephant and buffalo and have seen it used often with success. I believe in shot placement, and good bullets.

I believe a bolt gun is equel to a double, I love doubles, I am a nostalgic kinda guy, and that is the only reason I use them. I also love old English style bolt rifles and thats the reason I use them. The rest is BS.

I think sight choice is up to the individual and a very low power scope is excellent on dangerous game, although I personally prefer iron sights with a shallow v and 3/32 ivory bead or a receiver sight with a NECG gold faced partridge front sight. Mostly because the gun is handy without a scope and just looks good.

But if everyone agreed with my opines on hunting and guns, then there would be very little need for such forums as AR and others.

Robert,

The difference between .416 and .423 is technical and will never matter to the target.Will the approximately 250 fps difference matter in the real world?Maybe...maybe not!John Taylor had the observation that the 416 rigby had a more profound effect on lions and his level of experience would be difficult to equal.

Many shooters are traditionalists at heart and many think a bolt action looks naked without a scope and a double would look cluttered with it.As you note,this is not logical.

I've been a gun enthusiast for most of my life and yet I'm continually amused by the "double standard of thinking" that you point out.To be perfectly blunt,many people can't seem to think with logic without being seduced with emotion and many of these people just happen to be gun enthusiasts.You can find examples of this throughout the gun world.

Just my observations, GENTLEMEN and I mean that. Those are three of the most well thought out and least in-your-face answers I have ever seen on this forum. Thank you!

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Pond:
If you have a 450/400, shooting a 400 gr. bullet at around 2150 fps, it has been stated that it is a great cartridge, even for elephant. Now if you put a 400 gr, bullet in a 404J or a 416 Rigby, at that velocity, then it is anemic, needs to be pushed to at least 2400 fps+...so why is the same basic bullet, give or take .010 in diameter, so much better in a double?

Yeah, it gets confusing when a false premise is introduced.

In it's original loading (a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps in a 28" barrel, more like 2,050 fps in a real 24" rifle), the .404 Jeffery was adopted as official game department issue by Kenya, Tanganyika, and both Rhodesias - a hugh slice of Africa. It saw a simply tremendous volume of service in this role, including a great deal of use among elephant, in every condition imaginable, and acquitted itself magnificently.

As Pierre van der Walt put it: "In original Cordite configuration the cartridge launched a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps. Unlike humans that grow softer with each generation, African animals seem to grow tougher, because this moderate velocity load proved immensely effective in Africa - whereas modern hunters believe it a squib load."
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Pond:
If you have a 450/400, shooting a 400 gr. bullet at around 2150 fps, it has been stated that it is a great cartridge, even for elephant. Now if you put a 400 gr, bullet in a 404J or a 416 Rigby, at that velocity, then it is anemic, needs to be pushed to at least 2400 fps+...so why is the same basic bullet, give or take .010 in diameter, so much better in a double?

Yeah, it gets confusing when a false premise is introduced.

In it's original loading (a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps in a 28" barrel, more like 2,050 fps in a real 24" rifle), the .404 Jeffery was adopted as official game department issue by Kenya, Tanganyika, and both Rhodesias - a hugh slice of Africa. It saw a simply tremendous volume of service in this role, including a great deal of use among elephant, in every condition imaginable, and acquitted itself magnificently.

As Pierre van der Walt put it: "In original Cordite configuration the cartridge launched a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps. Unlike humans that grow softer with each generation, African animals seem to grow tougher, because this moderate velocity load proved immensely effective in Africa - whereas modern hunters believe it a squib load."
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

And remember that they acheived their reputation using bullets that were vastly inferior to the bullets we have today.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Pond:
First of all thanks for the forum. I have been a reader for a couple of months and have some questions....hence my ID.
Here is why I am severely confuse:
After catching up and reading various posts I have come to these conclusions that makes me think that double rifles are sheer magic.

The short answer to that question is, they are magic. Who told you?

quote:

If you have a 450/400, shooting a 400 gr. bullet at around 2150 fps, it has been stated that it is a great cartridge, even for elephant. Now if you put a 400 gr, bullet in a 404J or a 416 Rigby, at that velocity, then it is anemic, needs to be pushed to at least 2400 fps+...so why is the same basic bullet, give or take .010 in diameter, so much better in a double?

IMO, neither one of these rifles needs more than 2150 fps with a 400 gr bullet to be fine on dangerous game. In fact, most bolt rifle loads could be backed off considerably, with no ill results. It just seems most bolt rifle people want to load up till the rifleing comes out of the barrel with the first shot, and are more influanced by paper ballistics than double rifle shooters. Double rifle shooters shoot the load that the rifle was regulated for, and goes hunting!

quote:

Question 2...no one seems to ever put a scope on any double over .400 caliber when they hunt Africa...but if you DON'T have scope on your bolt action rifle you stand a good chance of the PH sending you packing, so the question is, why do you need a scope on a big bore bolt action rifle when shooting at elephant or cape buffalo, yet it is completely unnecessary if you have a double?

Your take goes right along with lots of shooters, on this point! I, however, am one who will mount a scope on a double rifle in a heartbeat. The scope will be mounted in QD rings and bases, whether it is on a double rifle, or bolt rifle. Both will have working iron sights, and the only difference is the double will be carried with the scope removed,with irons as primary. This is because the rifle ballances better without a scope. With the scope clipped on only when needed for a percision shot.
A bolt rifle will be carried with a scope as primary sighting system, and removed when irons are best, and both rifle use both types of sighting systems as back-up for the other, in case of breakage of either. This is simply the makeing a hunting rifle as versatile as is possible, to make it. It is not a conspiracy that was cooked up to confuse you!

quote:

Question 3....this has to do with accuracy...if you have a double that shoots inside 2 in. at 50 yards with both barrels, you have a great shooting double that is ready for any dangerous game hunt, (as long as it is a suitable caliber). Now if your bolt action big bore won't shoot MOA at 100 yards, and preferebly smaller groups, then you should take the gun apart, use the barreled action as a tomato plant stick, use the stock as kindling, because the gun is worthless.
Again, I am SEVERELY CONFUSED as to the "double standard" (pun intended!) when it comes to bolt vs. double. Looking forward to some opinions.

Bob

Accouracy is no better with a bolt rifle than a double rifle. They all have to be made to be accurate, first by the maker, and secondly by the shooter/loader. A double rifle, useing your example of 2" at 50 yds with both barrels, isn't an indication of the rifle's finite accuracy, but is simply an acceptable composite group, for hunting dangerous game. The rifle may very well shoot 1/2" groups from one or the other barrel, an may actually outshoot your fine bolt actioned DGR, for real accuracy. To see if this is true take two bolt rifle of the same chambering, and fire both at the same target, two shots from each rifle useing the same load that shoots MOA in one of the rifles, and see what the composite group of both rifles is! I think you will find that both barrels will shoot to two different POA, but may form a composite group even larger than a well regulated double with both barrels. A double rifle is two intirely seperate single shot rifles on the same stock.

What I'm saying here is,all different rifle systems have their own best features, and one is allways better than the other in some way. Your questions are what RIP calls a "How many angele can dance on the head of a pin" questions. There is no way to compare apples to watermellons, and get an answer to which is best, for all people!

BOB, when you find 15 hunters, shooters, fishermen, or race car drivers who all agree on who's choise is best, on any subject, so if you do, read the obituaries, because some one forgot to tell you've died but are no longer alive, and have gone to Heavon, !

but are doubles magic - why yes of course they are

I cannot add anything to this post more than Dan said!! And he said it very well indeed!!

Rich
DRSS