I need help chosing a DGR. An African Buff hunt is in my dreams but isn't likely to happen any time soon. Money isn't an issue, but I want to take the non-hunting wife and kids (boys 12,11 & 7)as observers. This will take some convincing of my better half. At a minimum, I think the youngest boy need to be a bit older

While I have little use for a DGR today, taking it to the range a few times a year will make my dream seem closer.

Questions:

1) I'm considering a CZ 550, ruger M77, stainless M70, and M70 safari. What's the best value (quality vs. price)? I'm leaning toward the 550.

2) What's the best caliber choice between .375HH and .458WM? The .375 seems more versatile but the .458 allows me to reload "plinker" loads with plentiful .45 cal cast bullets and perhaps replicate .45-70 ballistics for the annual Wisconsin whitetail hunt. I'm also thinking a reaming to .458 Lott may be in order.

3) Advice on outfitters?

Thanks in advance for any advice. I have to go before the wife yells at me about endless hours reading these forums!

My own taste in rifles runs towards the M70 for a variety of reasons. I prefer the stock dimensions and overall configuration, I like the broad range of scope mounting options as compared to the CZ, and I really think the M70 safety and trigger are the gold standards. It might cost a bit more than the CZ but will resale better anytime down the road. Since you are in no hurry, buy one and shoot it for a while to see what if any bugs need worked out, then get them fixed by a competent 'smith.
Caliber wise, either one will do. Hornady makes 220gr flat points for the 375 as well as lightweight 458cal bullets. Either will do for reduced load deer hunting or plinking. In full loadings, the 458 will take some practice to master, and you may or may not achieve the 2100fps level that is considered the baseline for reliable performance in the caliber.
Frankly, if it were me I'd probably buy one in 416Rem. as I truly feel it's better than either one for use on what the gun was made for.

Thanks John S. Isn't the selection of 416 bullets a bit limited vs. the .375 and .458?

Please keep the responses coming!

Citori,
I'll be another voice for the 416, whichever flavor. the cz in 416 rigby is a steal.

you have from 300 to 410gr bullet choices, in the mainstream, and hawk will make you heavier or lighters.

if you are going to choose between 375 and 458, the 375 will be more versitile in the US, and if you are recoil sensitive, the 375 will allow you to load down.

you can get or make cast bullets in just about anything you want.

good hunting, and if you can find buddies that have DGRs, see if they'll let you shoot em. besure to pay for the beer after.
jeffe

Another vote for the CZ, although I have a soft spot for Rugers, and they are making the M77 Mag in .458 Lott now so..... Decisions, decisions

In my old age, weight is the #2 priority.

The Mod. 70 inheritantly weighs less than the CZ. The .416 is probably a good compromise and can easily be downloaded.

citori3-
Yes, there is a better selection of bullets for the 375 and 458cal but the 416 has an adequate amount to pick from.
If you let that fact alone decide what caliber you purchase, then I'd go and have a serious look at the Ruger. It is now chambered in 458 LOTT, which is likely the best buffalo thumper currently available in a moderately priced gun. It will allow you to have the large selection of bullets, plus have truly adequate velocity potential with the heavy ones typically used for buffalo hunting.
I'm still a M70 416Rem believer, but that Ruger isn't bad at all!

Citori3, are you throughly confused now?

Any of the suggestions are good, and all will work for different reasons, and with verying levels of effeciency!

I would buy the CZ 550 in 416 Rigby, the Ruger in 416 Rigby, or the Mod 70 winchester in 458 LOTT, then pick up a Ruger in 300 Win Mag, or a Mod 70 in 300 mag. This would give you a choice of the different rifles, so you can buy what ever fits you best, and a 416 Rig/300 Win Mag, or 458 lott/300 Win Mag will make a very capable pairs for any country in Africa, and will handle anything that walks the Earth!

PS: The sevsn year old will be fine in Africa, as long as he isn't prone to go where is told not to. If he is a 7 yr old prone to not obey, that will not change with age! Staying where he is told is not just a social matter, but could save his life, or get him, or you killed! I say take him along, I was hunting on my own at age six!He'll be fine.

Good luck, and good hunting!


[ 07-16-2002, 16:35: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

You have plenty of gun advice, most good. Here's
my 2cents worth. This will be the trip your sons
will remember as long as they live. My wife was reluctant, but after the first trip, she will go back with little notice. I've taken both my sons,
and they talk about it all the time. Africa is so different and exotic, right down to the ants, that
everyone is excited to be there. And your sons
will learn first hand about conservation, and the value of animals, etc. Your doing a wonderful thing.

I have a cz 550 in .416 Rigby and I think the bullet selection is fine. Iove the 410 gr woodeligh SN's and I have just returned from a trip were I shot a reasonable amount of game both sitting & moving with it and it really is not that brutal recoil wise unless you get a little cocky and try shooting it like a smaller centerfire.

My vote is for either the Ruger M77 ( with new trigger) or the CZ-550 in .416 Rigby. I've shot a fair amount of African game with both a .375 and the .416 and the .416 Rigby is noticeably more decisive. Adda 1.5X5 scope and you are in buisness. Frankly this is a fine recipe for a single rifle safari -Rob

OK It's time for me to confess. I'm a bit concerned about recoil.

Three inch 12 ga. slugs out of a Rem. 870 are more than I like to put myself through. About a dozen rounds at the range and my brain starts to rattle.

That said, am I better off with the .375? I've been told the big boomers (.40 and up) are better left to the PH who will be backing you on a Buff. He'll be more experienced at handling recoil and the primary hunter should concentrate on shot placement.

Also, the cz550 seems to be heavier that the M70 or M77. Will this help dampen recoil?

I won't ask about the 550's stock design since that's discussed elsewhere and it seems evoke strong opinions pro and con.

I'm reaching for my wallet on the cz550. Stop me if I'm making a mistake and guide me on the caliber.

Citori3 the BRNO 602, or the CZ 550 chambered for 375 H&H is probably the most common rifle seen in the hands of local hunters in Africa. They are ecentially the same rifle with the safety reversed on the CZ to work like other rifles. The 550 is a true magnum action, and is a very good basis for even much larger chamberings, if you desire that at a later date! Go for it you won't be sorry!

I have a Ruger M77 in .375 H&H for sale - and I could give you a great deal - I have pics and reloading supplies as well. Guy Kish

Hi citori3,

I have CZ 550s in both 416 Rigby and 375 H&H and love them. If you want the easier shooting rifle, the 375 wins hands down. I have read various posts in this forum that there isn't much difference recoil wise between the two but in my experience that isn't the case. IMHO the 375 is a fun round that practically everyone can shoot well...I like shooting it more than a 300mag or my 338 Lapua by a fair margin. The .416 with hunting loads (400gr at 2400+) is not as forgiving. It is not "bad" but it IS MORE.

For the "old hands" here of big bore shooting the 416 is mild, but for us newbies it takes some time and dedication to master. A goal of mine is to shoot the 416 as good as (and as comfortable as) the 375, but right now I admit I don't. If you have any doubts, I think the 375 (in whatever flavor of rifle) would be a great starting point and you can progress upward from there. The CZs may need a little tweaking by a smith (as do most off the rack rifles) but I believe they are a wonderful bargain. Buy one and get shooting!

Take care,

John

You will ove the cz's I love mine and I think they allow people like me with not much cash to get into Big Bores at a good price, I like there big long barrels and the express sights they come with. They certainly look the part.

I still prefer the 404 Jefferys, but I'm a hopeless romantic chucked full of nostalgia...

The Win. M-70 or a the Ruger Safari 77 in a 416 Remington is the most practicle of the bunch and plenty of gun for anything that walks, talks, breathes or crawls, However the 458 Lott in a Ruger is certainly a killing machine if you can pack it all day and shoot it in all positions....

I know about recoil, I used to think a stock 1903a3 in 3006 kicked.. until my dad told me to unwrap my thumb on short stocked guns.
the 416s (rem or rigby) with 400 gr at 2100 is like shooting a good trap loaded 12ga. It's a puppy, really. I've got a friend shooting 375 jdj, and his TOO LIGHT gun kicks the snot out of him, but he shot my 416 about 15 times 2 weeks ago.

just my 2�
jeffe

I have to agree with PC about those CZ 550 rifles. They are excellent production grade rifles and best of all they are at a very reasonable price. As much as I like the Winchester Model 70, I think the CZ 550 is a better one to get. Cheers! Ming

Thanks all, I'm still torn on caliber, 375 (more versatile) vs. 458 (only kid on the block with one). I'm leaning toward the cz550.

I'd appreciate any further thoughts.

Gary Kish, how do I contact you? If It's the new model M77, I may be interested. I'm a Ruger fan (have eight of their products) and I like the 3 position safety and mauser type bolt release.

Gary Kish, how do I contact you? If It's the new model M77, I may be interested. I'm a Ruger fan (have eight of their products) and I like the 3 position safety and mauser type bolt release.

My name is Guy Kish - no problem and my home e-mail is GKish45@earthlink.net. Contact me and I'll send some pics and more info.

Or use the flying letter icon on my post.

Citori,

The .375 H&H is the classic Africa caliber; I have a pair of them, and you can shoot anything in Africa with that caliber. I also have a .376 Steyr, my .H&H Short as it were.

I would start with the .375, you can always go up in caliber. I have both BRNO and M70 style (actually a Kimber), and I favor the M70 for smoothness and finish.

Rifle master John Gannaway sez "The .375 H&H is like a pair of black shoes, everybody needs one."

jim dodd

ps. I only shoot about 12 rounds when I practice with a heavy gun. Working from field positions is much easier that developing loads from the bench.

citori3, go with the CZ 416 Rigby, Load it slightly down to 450/400, 404 specs, a 400gr. at 2150fps. Low recoil, big bore and plenty of power. This will give you the most power for your dollar. A 300gr. Hawk at @ 2300fps is a good low recoil deer, pig, plinking load. With 400gr. softs and solids you are ready for Jurrasic Park.

Thanks for all your responses. I think I'm going with the cz550 in .458 Mag. I just need to see what my smithy will charge to ream to .458 Lott. I also need to see what Guy Kish has to offer on the Ruger.

It's always hardest to decide between guns you don't need!!!

Many people are concerned about the recoil of big bores and wind up fearing them as well as developing a flinch that can ruin their shooting for life. However, recoil can be very effectively managed, First, make sure whatever gun you buy that it has a straight stock with as little drop at the heel as possible. Buy a gun with the longest barrel you are comfortable with. This is not for added accuracy or power, but for getting the gun as heavy as you can manage comfortably. Have a good gunsmith install a Triple X recoil pad, tune the trigger( or replace the factory one) and install a good effective muzzel break. Make sure you buy a scope with as much eye relief as possible. A good Leupold M-8, 2.5X has about 5 inches of eye relief. A kahles, swarofski or leica 1.5X6 are also good choices. If you reload, start with 270 gr bullets going slow and work your way up to 300 gr full power loads. Make sure you can shoot the gun comfortably from various field positions( not from the bench) and wear a Past recoil pad on a shooting jacket. This last tip works very well all by itself, because the pad distributes recoil over a very large area. If you follow this recipe, believe me you will have no problem with the recoil of a .375. -Rob

I have been told this and have heard this many times, and have found it true even tho I have never gone to Africa to hunt-----Use as much gun as you can shoot. You can find DG in the Americas if you look, I know I have, and the last thing you want is to be afraid of your rifle when the moment is on you. I would suggest trying a few cartridges, maybe a local gun club could help you out, and find what you can comfortably, or more correctly, accurately shoot. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site, and it is for good reason that so many like controlled feed. You don't have to have it, but you don't need your seat belt very often either, just real nice to have when you do need it. I, too, would love to hunt Africa, but I am afraid that hunting as I knew it in Idaho, Washington and Alaska doesn't exist anymore anywhere, including the aforementioned states. But it would be fun finding out, eh?

OK guys, what's the best deal?

1) cz550 for $675 + tax
2) Win. m70 safari classic for $875 + tax
3) Win m70 stainless for $719 + tax
4) Ruger m77 express,used,excellect cond. sight unseen ( over the internet)with 100 rnds ammo + dies for $1000 plus shipping and FFL fees

All are .375 H&H, I'm nearly convinced my first big bore shouldn't be a .458 WM or Lott as recoil may be too much for this newbie. For whatever reason, the .416's don't interest me.

I'm cheap, so the cz keeps calling me, but the used Ruger is awfully tempting.

By the way, my gunsmith/retailer recommends the cz. He's about as fussy and compulsive as they come and he thinks it's an incredible deal for the money. Must be honest advice since I know he makes the least money if I go with the cz.

citori3 One of my friends has a CZ "SAFARI" 375. The rifle shoots real good. The gun shoots much "softer" than the 3 different 375's I have had. The iron sights look crude but they work, he also put a 1.75x6 Leupold heavy duplex, gun shoots good at 200yds.

RUGER RUGER RUGER RUGER - just kidding - do what is best for you and let us know how it turns out. If you don't buy my Ruger RSM then let your friends know about my excellent deal. Thanks

The M70 stainless price surprised me. I like the m70, in particular the safety. I'm used to stainless models priced above the blued model. What would I be giving up versus the m70 classic safari? Is it just fit and finish or am I sacrificing function and reliabilty? Also, aren't the m70's a bit light for the caliber? Not much to absorb recoil.

Guy, you're still in the running. I'm still trying to get comfortable buying a used rifle from afar. Good for you though. Someone may read this and buy from you before I decide!

Citori, I had almost the same situation that you now find yourself in. I was literally drooling over the CZ 550. Advise from these boards had me leaning to the 416 although the 458 was my first thought. I already have a 338 winnie so the 375 never really was in the running. Was getting ready to pull the trigger and buy the cz 416 Rigby when I found a damn fine deal on a withworth 458 on Gunbroker.com Put a Burris Compact in Warne rings on top and had less than all the new options I found. But I really want a CZ sometime before they realize the value that they are selling and either cheapen them up or jack the price. Don't know if this helped at all but it is what I experienced. I don't think you would be dissapointed at all with the cz!!! gabe

I have a Winchester 70 Classic Stainless in 338 Win Mag. The quality on this particular rifle is no match for my CZ 550 Safari. The bead blast finish does not look finish in some areas. The extractor does not hold the case very firmly. The plastic stock does not look too good. The plastic follower is a joke. However, the bolt slides in and out tightly and smoothly and that 3-way safety is definitely a notch better than the CZ 550. Good luck. Cheers! Ming

Citori,

If looks and classic lines mean anything at all, then go with the Ruger. They are feaking beautiful! In fact, I laid mine down next to a $7,000 Dakota rifle and everyone in the store agreed that they would have choosen the Ruger over the Dakota based on the wood and lines of the rifle. It really is that good a gun.

The CZ Safari Grade reminds me of pregnant baseball bat -- only a baseball bat has a better piece of wood!

The M-70, depending on the wood in the stock, looks like a rifle. Not much more appealing than the six million Model 700s being drug around the eastern whitetail woods and western elk thickets.

Guess you can tell, I'm partial to "classic" looking safari guns.

citori3,

Can I through in a curve ball here? Take a look at the CZ550 American in 9.3x62...
You get a classic straight stocked rifle along the lines of the M70 in a calibre which does not give much away to the .375H&H.

This calibre is a minimum for buff but with correct shot placement and quality bullets is has a good reputation behind it. This would also be a real flexible calibre for us in the States.

After you have used this a while you can then look at getting one of the various .416's or .458, if you feel the need....

Regards,

Peter

Pete,

This is an uncommon cartridge in the US. As fate would have it, someone just bought that rifle in that caliber from my local gunshop. The shop owner was impressed. The lack of ammo availability will keep me away though. If only CZ would produce the American in .375HH!

I'm hearing great things about the cz 550. Just as I'm about to buy the cz 550 in .375HH, gahunter makes the crack about a "pregnant baseball bat" and Guy Kish keeps tempting me with that Ruger (What I truly want but pricey). You guys are helpfull in providing info, but it's not making my decision any easier! Unfortunately, no one in my area stocks the cz or any of the others in large calibers (not much demand). I'd love to be able to compare side by side.

Does anyone know of a stoking cz dealer in the Chicago area?

I'm probably going to end up frustrated and buy a Kimber .45! Not as sexy but I'll use it once a month.

Citori,
Go to CZ's website (czusa.com) there is a dealer finder. As the CZs become more and more popular there will be more stocks made for it, and you never know you might just like that pregnant baseball bat after you try it out . gabe

Gabe,

Thanks, I tried that. No one has them in stock. My local gunshop owner wanted me to run over and see the 9.3 mm a customer had ordered but he picked it up before I could get there.

Anyone know what type of rifle Capstick carried in his "beloved .375 HH"? His books started me on this whole safari quest so I might as well copy his rifle as closely as I can. I know many think he was a lying boozer, but I find his writing addicting.

If you're not in a rush, keep your eyes pealed for a used Whitworth 375. They show up occasionally, and can be good to great buys.

I picked up a manlicher stocked 9.3X62 CZ-550, and had a strong case of the I want'uz. Fortunately our local shop has them priced higher then they should, so it didn't turn into the I gotta hav'uz