I am new to this board but have a basic questions-
What are the differences between a .416 Rigby and Remington?

The .416 Remington is a slimmer round and fits in most .375H&H-length actions, e.g. Win M-70, Rem. 700, et al.. Its ballistics are designed to equal the classic .416 Rigby loading of 400gr. bullet @2400fps. However, due to its smaller case, it requires higher pressures to achieve these velocities. The .416 Rigby can be hot-rodded to 2600fps or more.

The Rigby requires a larger action (magnum Mauser, CZ, Mark V .378-size action) or more extensive modifications to fit in a Model 70, for example.

.416 Remington brass is cheaper than Rigby brass, if you care about stuff like that.

The .416 Rigby has it all over the Remington version in 'nostalgia factor', if you care about stuff like that.

George

There's a few differences: the Rem is a belted case, standard magnum length and head size. The Rigby is a longer, fatter case - loaded to lower pressures incidently. Performance-wise, the Rem has a slight advantage when comparing factory ammo, but the Rigby has a more case capacity and can be loaded faster if you wish. Get a copy of Cartridges of the World - lots of info there. You could also go to Federal Ammunition's web page at www.federalcartridge.com for specs on the two rounds, as they load both in their premium lineup. 416 Rem ammo is a lot cheaper than the Rigby if you are not reloading. maxman

I am looking at this for my first cape buffalo hunt next year. Am debating the .375 H&H vs. a .416. I am just a hunter, not into nostalgia, going to go with wood and blue - no synthetics or stainless.
Any other comments are appreciated.

Any of the three will kill buffalo; the .416s will be better in a 'fight' due to their larger diameter and heavier bullets.

You can get a CZ in .416 Rigby for under $700, I think; a Winchester M-70 .416 probably runs about $900, and a .375H&H is a few bucks cheaper.

George

The 416 Rem is the best choice IMHO, given your practical approach to this hunt. However, there is another considration: Many dangerous game hunters prefer controlled round feed and once you go that route there is little cost effective competition to the CZ 550 which does not chamber the 416 rem. It does chamber the 416 Rigby and 375 H&H.

So, in a sense it boils down to whether CRF is important to you. If it is the CZ in 416 Rigby is a good choice. You can also get the CZ in 458 LOTT now, but it will have more recoil and is not as useful for longer shots on other types of game. As far as I cna tell, if you want CRF in any other make of DG rifle you will spend $1500 vs $800 for the CZ.

If CRF is not critical to you, you can get a good deal from Remington.

I forgot to mention the Ruger RSM .416 Rigby, at $1150.

George

It is probably better to go with a .375 and get accustomed to the recoil. It is all that is needed for buff. You can always move up later if wanted.

If you can handle the added recoil of a 416 over a 375, then the 416 is the best choice.

For a serious hunting rifle, I think the 416 rem is the better choice as the rifle will be lighter and more compact. In the big scheme of things, a 416 doesn't have that much recoil.

I can't see using a 416 Rigby sized rifle for anything smaller than a 450 Rigby, and would rather chamber it in something bigger like a 470 Mbogo, 500 A-2 or 550 mag.

My other rifles are all Model 70's with CRF. I plan to stay with the Model 70, that eliminates the .416 Rigby. I am not too concerned about the price as I will have it worked on to smooth it out.

Thanks for everyone for the help on this. I try to be practical but got confused over the Rigby/Remington differences.

Try working up a 416 Rem load with Varget. No pressure problems in the heat.
JCN

JCN,
varget, rl15, win748... all good stuff

jeffe

I would tend to differ on that factory loadind thread.I own and shoot a .416 Rigby, my buddy has a .416 Remington. We both reload so factory loadings are not really an issue, it's just one way to get brass. However, on a bet we decided to chrony some Federal factory loads in each caliber. The Rigbys were close to advertised at 2360-2380 fps. the Remingtons were in the high 2200's to 2315 or so fps. I think that Remington was a little optimistic in their initial velocity predictions for this round. Not that the Rem is a bad round by any stretch of the imagination. I am only making the point that IMO the Remington .416 would benefit more than the Rigby from the reloaders touch.

I think that Remington backed off on their loadings quite a bit after some reports (true or not) of sticking cases and some bullets spit out of cases after rolling around in the heat for an extended period of time. My Remington factory loads circa 1992 are fairly brisk. The old 350 grain Swift factory load was popular in Alaska when I was stationed up there. I load with either Varget or RL 15, just like senor el jeffe recommends. (I sold all my 748 to some older folks at the nursing home.) Varget is of course temperature insensitive, but RL-15 has been improved a lot in that department in the last few years. The US military now uses RL 15 in their 7.62 sniper ammunition. They didn't want to use Varget for some reason (Australian manufacture, doesn't flow as well through high speed loading machinery?), so they gave Alliant some development money to stabilize RL 15 and add a flash deterrent. That made a good powder better. Now you too can have a stealth 416 Rem cartridge to use at night...

I am sitting in about the same shoes as you. I want to go for a big cat, but I'll probably go for a buffalo (it's cheaper for me with best odds for success.) I have been debating between he 416 rem mag and 375 H&H in a winchester m70. (The m70 fits me real well) The 416 rigby was ruled out because I don't reload and ammo is too expensive for a non-handloader. The 416 rem is cheaper for ammo, but it still isn't cheap enough for a good plinking round. The 375 H&H is cheap to shoot, but it doesn't have the same appeal a 416 rem mag has for a stopper. A lot will come down to what you can afford and handle in recoil. I would suggest, if you have never tried a big bore before, go with a friend and shoot their big bores. I'm going in a few weeks with another board member to try his 416 and 375. I can then make an educated choice on what I can handle in terms of recoil. Your PH will be much happier if you have a 375 that you can shoot, than 416 you can't.

Sevens

DogCat: One thing to keep in mind. The Rigby produces the (Supposedly) identical ballastics as the 416 Remington. However, since it does so at a much lower pressure, the barrel will last a whole lot longer. If you buy it, like it, and start shooting it, that could mean something down the road.

Then again, you would have to shoot a whole lot for it to matter.

The rest of the info given to you in this thread I totally agree with. Really, do focus on the cost of ammo. Even if you don't reload, buy a single stage press just for this one round. It will pay for itself just on the cost of 416 ammo.

You may find the 375 to be a bit more useful around North America than either 416. Then again, if you handload, this won't be an issue. Cast bullets in the 416 do wonders on deer or hogs!

RobertD

Well



I like old classic stuff. Actually there has not been much of "improvement" among the cartridges "invented" during the last 50 years.



416 rigby does everything the 416 rem do at much lower pressures. The 416 Rigby can be loaded to the same lever as 416Wby. That is often too much recoil for most shooters



Cheers

/ JOHAN

For me, I made my decision (416 Remington vs 416 Rigby)based on what rifle model I felt most comfortable with (i.e., handeling, fit, style, etc.). I think in general, everyone would recommend control round feed for dangerous game, so that leaves the following rifles to choose from: Winchester M-70 in 416 Rem., CZ in 416 Rigby, Ruger in 416 Rigby, Dakota in 416 Rem. or 416 Rigby, and some others on the Mauser action. Both 416's (Remington & Rigby) will shoot 400 grain bullets at 2400fps.

The 416 Remington is a lot more versatile than the 375 and has less recoil than the 416 Rigby. My "mellow" 400 grain load in the Rem is 78-79 grains of RL-15. In the Rigby it is 96-98 grains of H4831 long cut. That extra 20 grains of powder to get the same velocity makes for noticeably more recoil.
The 350 grain Swift is pretty flat shooting out of the 416 Rem at moderate pressure levels. It makes for a darn good elk/moose/bear load; better than the 270 grain bullet out of a 375 H7H. The 416 Rem is one of those rounds where the bullet selection, shootability, and ease of loading really came out well.
I totally agree with Robert D about getting a single stage press for this cartridge. It is easy to load. Western Bullet Company in Missoula, Mt (406-728-4801) will sell you 350 grain lubed and gas checked bullets (RCBS mould #416-350-fn) for about 20 cents each. Add 40 grains of Accurate XMP 5744 and you have an 1800 fps load that even my dead grandma could shoot. Like Robert mentioned, that load puts a big leaky hole in hogs and deer. They fall over easy and you don't have any bloodshot meat.
Get a Lee factory crimp die for the 416 Rem. They are cheap and the finished rounds look as good as they shoot. Brass life is very good for either 416 round if you keep speeds and pressures moderate. I tried loading the Rigby up once . Have fun.
JCN

JohnCharlieNoak,

Quote:

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They are cheap and the finished rounds look as good as they shoot. Brass life is very good for either 416 round if you keep speeds and pressures moderate. I tried loading the Rigby up once

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Would you please elaborate as to what happened when you "loaded up" the Rigby that one time. I am seriously considering buying a 416 Rigby, but only if I can load it up. I met a guy who says you can get some mighty impressive ballistics out of the Rigby, but I don't know if he is BSing me or not.

Thanks,
ASS_CLOWN

When I cranked the velocity on the Rigby up it became so very much not fun to shoot . That cartridge was designed to shoot 400 grain bullets at 2370 fps. At that velocity level the sights are regulated, the soft points work pretty well (except for me the Woodleighs tend to over expand), and the solids penetrate deeply into any beast on the face of the earth. I don't believe you really gain anything by stomping on the accelerator. You then need a monometal type bullet to reliably funtion, it's hard to precisely place the shot when you subconsciously know your fillings are going to get loosened, and the gun is harder to control during the recoil cycle. I think there is some justification for taking advantage of newer bullet technology with, say the 375 RUM (see Saeed's posts on the subject). I think however, that in the case of the Rigby it works really well, and is very controllable pushing a 400 grain bullet of any construction in the 2400 fps range. The human neck, shoulder, and brain do not do well when a large recoil impulse becomes larger and sharper. Small blood vessels leak, retinas detach, and the suconscious starts screaming "NO". That is why I am much more interested in possibly building a 404 Jeffrey than in buying a 458 Lott. I think that the 416 Rigby will do all that you want at 2400 fps. My CZ 416 handle like a fine shotgun. I can thread shots where I want them to go with ease. Why mess with that?
Take care,
JCN

In your case I would recommend the 375 H&H or 416 Rem. Both are capable Buffalo rifles, so chose based on your recoil tolerances..

Also, you can always load a 416 Rem down to 2100 FPS and the recoil is nil, and that's a pleasant load to shoot.. and it makes not one iota of difference, any 400 gr. bullet going 2100 FPS or 2600 FPS kills the same, at least I have never been able to see any difference and I have shot a lot of buffalo at both velocities with the 404...

Any 400 gr. bullet with a sectional density of say 275 to 300, at over 2000 FPS will kill a buffalo quite well.

If you want a better killing cartridge then go up the caliber scale, not the velocity scale, that only works on Plainsgame and deer, not on the big stuff...

Another thing you might consider is the .375 is a very capable deer and elk cartridge right here in the good old USA, so unless you intend to hunt Africa a lot, then the 375 would be the far better choice IMO.

Hi Dogcat:

My first big bore was a 416 Rem Mag Custom, built on a....ready for this ... Oh NO.. a Remington Model 700 action. It was built by a local gunsmith and performed beautifully. I shot a trophy class 46in. Buff. I didn't know that I HAD to have a CRF Rifle ...LOL Another debate that will go on for ever. By the way I shoot a 400 grn Swift @ 2500 FPS using 77.5 grains of IMR4064...Sub MOA.. no high pressure.. no hard extraction.. I really, really like my 416 rem mag, it just tips the scales at an even 10 lbs. scope and all.

I then later purchased a used 458 Ruger Win Mag, a custom AHR 458 Lott, and a custom 375 Mod 70 H&H mag.

The most cumfortable to shoot, and most accurate, .5 in groups at 100 yards is my 375 H&H, shoots a 270 grain swift at about 2600 FPS, using 77 grains IMR4350 with a 21in. barrel.

Another tid bit, the 416, 458 and 375 all have custom breaks. The 458 Lott has two recoil mercury tubes in the stock, weighs 12 lbs. and still kicks like a fricken mule.

My vote a 416 Rem Mag... Shoots flat, hits hard, carrys lighter than a 416 rigby, uses less powder, alot cheaper on brass, and a pocket full of bullets don't weigh you down.

Regards... Jim P.

I have a 375 H&H on Enfield action ,416 Rem on enfield,
460 weatherby ,510 Wells the 375 H&H has taken more animals than the other rifles all combined but I must admit the 416 rem is the backup rifle to all the others. So I say stick with the 416 rem.get the thing to feed smooth and you'll be happy with it.

I have shot a lot of Buffalo with the 416 Rem and my standard load of 78 grs. of RL-15 and thats a couple of grains under max and its worked every time..Depending on the bullet I use thats about 2400 FPS or less...I have not had pressure problems, and I don't know anyone that has except some gun writter in Man Magnum magazine who heard that someone else had had pressure problems..

Anytime someone tells me that they had pressure problems in the hot climates, I tell them the climate had nothing to do with it, too much powder causes pressure problems...If this was true then the 270, 7 mag and a bunch of other calibers would have the same problem as they all operate at about the same pressure.

.

If practicality is all you are after the Rem mag gets it. Cheaper ammo widly available rifles and ammo. You can even resize 375 casses if need be. The Rigby has it in the nostalgia and unique factor(at least for a while) Not just every Tom,Dick and Harry has got a 416 Rigby laying around. By the way you can use lighter bullets and load to near 300 win mag trajectories in the Rigby. Read Nikudu's handloading for the 416. Very interesting reading. I have been playing with just such an option and loaded 325 gr North forks to 2950 with no pressure signs. This makes the 416 legit for open range shooting at larger plains game. Try getting 2950 fps out of the Rem case. Recoil was stiff but highly managable. I fired about 25 rounds with it and 10-15 in my .404 Jeffreys and a pile through a 300 win mag. All from the bench, No soreness nor pain. It all becomes relative and what you get used to. It seemed that the 300 had virtually no recoil. Some people, one of my dear friends included, really doesn't like to shoot his 300 because the recoil is so bad. I chose the Rigby and have never regretted the decision. I will admit that buying brass takes an act of will but so far it looks as if that Norma brass may just last forver. Good hunting. D