Mike375 and I have been enjoying a friendly and spirited debate on the 400H&H and other large calibers and their virtues/liabilities. In order that some closure might come in our debate I thought asking the forum members for their opinions might be interesting.
The first scenario is that you are in process of buying an expensive bolt rifle. This gun will be made by the best craftsmen you can find, embody all of your well thought out ideas on what it should be. This is going to be a "best quality" rifle in any sense of the word. It will function flawlessly, be very accurate and fit perfectly. The finest wood, chosen for strength and grain flow. A classic Mauser or P17 action, or even a M70. Sights and scopes included or not, engraving to your tastes or no. Stock design can be English or American Classic or whatever you prefer.
What caliber are you going to choose? This is a big bore, so no 375s please. Calibers from 400 up are what we're dealing with here. The choices are whatever you want! Just give an explanation as to why you chose a 463*&%$# and tell us what type of loads you will typically shoot through it when not actually in Africa.
The second scenario is much like the first, only here you are buying/building a "working rifle" that embodies much of the same qualities as the aforementioned "best grade" gun, minus the lavish features. This gun could wear a 'glass or laminated stock, use a rust proof finish such as teflon or MP3. Again, what caliber and what loads will be used in it for practice and informal shooting, plus loadings for serious hunting?

[ 06-13-2003, 17:26: Message edited by: John S ]

Will this be my ONLY big bore?

Will I use it only for dangerous game hunting, or will it double for plains game?

This one is easy!

.425 Westley-Richards as done by W-R originally. I would prefer English scroll please.

I have always thought the .425 looked way cool and have wanted one but it is well out of my range. Loads would be cast bullets since they are cheeep.

Working rifle...depends. Long range, .375 Weatherby. Short range, i.e. willow firest and bushes around here...the .600 I will build.

500grs-
No, it doesn't have to be your only big bore. I think if one were building a "best quality" it would likely be his end-all rifle. One that embodies everything he has come to demand/expect out of such a rifle. So, try it both ways, one as the only big bore and the other as part of a battery, possibly pairedwith the "working gun" I mentioned. Do you shoot plains game with your big bores? If so, chose accordingly. Remember that a big bore is generally thought of as a stopper, or a rifle designed to be used against really tough and dangerous game.

Roger-
No fair, I said no 375s!

[ 06-13-2003, 17:40: Message edited by: John S ]

Roger,

No 375s so 375 Weatherby is out.

Mike

Best Quality - .404 Rimless (Jeff)

Working Rifle - .458 Lott

Two 404 Jeffery's, Model #2.

One to use and one to look nice.

[ 06-13-2003, 17:55: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]

I did #1 when I had Rigby(calif) build a 416 Rig to my specs several years ago. In my opinion this rifle does it all...beautiful, extremely accurate, action that feeds flawlessly, stock to my dimensions, scope with QD mnts, iron sights that line up when I mount the gun with eyes closed...everything I could want. 416 Rigby? I handload so ammo is no problem and the round is a long term proven killer for all african game. I shoot Hornady softpoints for practice and Swift softs/Speer AGS solids for hunting (400grs). Since I don't differentiate between working and show rifles this is the one. Granted I don't hunt rain forest or Alaska. I don't have any plans for another heavy rifle.

mike aw,

You have a good approach...one rifle. I wish I was as disciplined.

I would vote for the Rem over the Rigby as you can stuff more in the magazine. 4 in my 416 and 5 in the Lott. But one rifle is equally important.

Griffen & Howe .416 Rigby on a true magnum action, a double square bridge would be fine. An undecided scope set up in their top mounts with a nice back up set of irons. Handloaded woodleighs at 2400 and no more would do just fine for me.

Best Quality: 404 Jeff on a Brno ZG-47 action, drop box magazine, 1 standing 1 folding integral express-style rear sight on a half octagon half round full tapered rib barrel, high-grade darkly figured European walnut, English express rifle styling, Talley style detachable rings, built by top members of the American Custom Gun Guild, tight English scroll engraved by top member of American Firearms Engravers Guild. I'd use a commercial FN action with built up double square bridge scope bases and a M-70 type safety if I couldn't find a ZG-47 action.
Working Rifle: Brno ZKK-602 375 H&H or 458 Lott.

[ 06-13-2003, 20:03: Message edited by: fla3006 ]

John S.,

It would be a best quality .585 nyati built by Joe Smithson on a Granite Mountain Arms action with integral lug on barrel, integral quarter rib and rear sight ramp, integral barrel band sling stud, and integral front sight barrel band and ramp.

The stock wouuld be exhibition English that is straight grained from the pistol grip forward with generous dark burl in the butt.

Iron sights only.

Magazine capacity of 4 down plus 1 in the chamber.

Rifle weight of 13 pounds.

Price: $11,500

Yeah!

Or, if it could be a double, it would be a Westley Richards with removable locks in 500 NE with exhibition grade English and no engraving.

$45,000

[ 06-13-2003, 20:51: Message edited by: 500grains ]

.416 Rigby on a magnum mauser action.

I have a Ruger M77 in the .416 Rigby and it is a great rifle for the price. I consider it a working rifle since I'm not concerned about taking it out and getting a few nicks & scratches on it while hunting.

Now, if I had the choice of a bolt rifle at any cost, I would do exactly what mike aw did and go with the 416 Rigby in a Rigby rifle. For an all around Africa rifle, you can't go wrong with this combo.

Tim

Even if I had Bill Gates money I would probably only go the one rifle. It would be a fairly utilitarian P-17 in a .458 wildcat built on the .404 Jeffery case w/laminated stock, 26" bbl & a matte blue finish. That really is what I am in the process of doing now. I am not knocking the fancier rifles it is just that my taste doesn't run that way. One thing I would do is make sure the stock fits me perfectly.

[ 06-13-2003, 21:34: Message edited by: WyoJoe ]

Well thought out answers thus far, good going everyone! As I said before, no one is obligated to list only their "dream" rifle, if you prefer or can only afford a "working" type gun then fine, let's hear about it.
I am curious to know if any of the respondents thus far that have listed a high dollar rifle already own it, realistically plan to acquire it or are just dreaming of it? Same goes for the working models.

A 458 Lott. Same caliber for both rifles. Enough power for elephant or buff up close, and you can load it down for practice on deer and wild pigs.
It will shoot regular 458 Win ammo in an emergency. I would have the stock built like the old British rifles, express sights, with 2 scopes in QD mounts. It would have at least a 24 inch bbl. No muzzle break of any kind.
In fact it could look like a Johannsen Express Rifle. What ever happened to them.

But to tell the truth, I would much rather have a double rifle. Much, much rather.

I did this last year. I took my left handed .416 Weatherby to Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit (the .416 didn't stop charges quickly enough) and had them turn it into a 500 Jeffrey. I chose the most expensive piece of wood in the shop and gave them a set of specifications to build to............. man, it came out beautifully! Cost was extremely good and the rifle not only looks great it also shoots real straight. As I had my season looming, I took the rifle without having the engraving done.... and it still hasn't been done almost 2 years later. When I can find time I plan to have a few discreet and unusual bits of engraving put on it. Such the eye you have on the US $1 bill just behind the rear sight, a letter G on the ball of the bolt and I guess I'll also have the head of a buff somewhere.

I had this built as a PHs rifle. If I was a hunter I would have chosen a .416 Rigby calibre.

The US agent for Sabi Rifles is Nickudu who posts on the AR forums.

Hi John S.

Well the Best quality, I am having a custom built by AHR right now, the caliber of my choice 458 Lott. It can handle Ele or Buff, and knock a lion for a loop.

My working rifle is another custom I had built two years ago, Shillen barrel, Koblus custom black laminated stock, NECG iron sights, Leupold 1.5X5 scope, in 416 Rem Mag.

Regards... Jim P.

[ 06-13-2003, 22:42: Message edited by: PAHunter ]

John - Well, I would vote for a .416 Dakota, on a Dakota Model 76 action, 24" Lothar Walther barrel, wrapped in bastogne, three paneled checkered bolt handle, jeweled bolt, quarter rib, double cross bolt, skeleton grip cap, barrel band & Ken Howell swivel, and toped with Talley Rings and Swarovski scope.

Sorta like this....

I'd opt for an old Mauser drop box by Holland and Holland in 404 Jefferys, or a nice old Hoffman arms deluxe would surfice...

I already have some nice English type guns...

Not counting double rifles here???? thats always my choice...

BTW, I just got a nice 450-400-31/4", couldn't stand the seperation, its no sweet Thang but it's "purtyer", just doesn't shoot as well, but never saw one that did, this one is showing me it wants to shoot real bad, we will see.

What...no one wants a 400H&H?

I would choose either a .450 Rigby or .416 Rigby and am probably leaning towards a .416 for it's vitues as being a able to do a bit of everything well.

I would take a 400 H&H magnum. Made by Holland and Holland of course. Standard Best Grade.

Axel

John,

Since I am the same as Mickey1 in that the full custom rifle and ordinary rifle would be of the same calibre, then certain practicalities that relate to my shooting would have to be considered and that means a 400 H&H.

There are 3 choices, the 400 H&H, 416 Remington and 416 Rigby and also the 416 Dakota nd Weatherby but only if the rifles are from Dakota or Weatherby.

The 400 H&H has all the class before it even gets fully off the ground but it beats the 416 Rigby hands down on practicality and also (at least for me) beats the 416 Remington on practicality.

It beats the Rigby on practicality firstly on action choice. Secondly its much smaller case capacity makes it far superior for working with a range of reduced loads which for me is important because I fire lots of shots as well as liking to fiddle about with different loads.

Being a 41 means it will shoot the 416 pistol bullets. In addition the extremely long neck makes the 400 perfect for cast bullet use.

Being an Australian, components are always on ones mind and the 400 H&H shares the brass with the 375s. In this respect it is also better than the 416 Remington. Reason being that a 375 H&H necked straight up will be big enough in case capacity to hold full power charges that would be used in the 400. Not so for 416 Remington unless the loads were compressed in the extreme. Brass for the 416 Remingtom made from 375s would need to be fireformed before full loads could be used. Brass for 416 Remington in Australia is not here. In fact the Remington agent thinks the 416 Rem is discontinued. As to bullets, non premiums are very thin on the ground for both 400 and 416 but Woodleighs out here are the same price as Hornadies and even more available since the Woodleighs are made out here.

Lastly the 400 H&H just goes with either 300 H&H or 375 H&H like no other calibre.

Mike

[ 06-14-2003, 08:06: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

John S,

You know that Burgess/Fisher 416 Rigby, she was pretty alluring for the fancy rifle portion of the question.

But the real world non fantasy rifle would be produced by that shop in Millville, UT and spit .416 but from the Rem. case. I would want for open sights and Burgess's rings if I could gain consent.

Many Thanks

HBH

John, here's a predictable answer......

For my ultimate big-bore, I'd choose the .416 Remington cartridge hands down; in part because I can shoot it, and also because I can still have a fairly compact rifle built around it. The fact that ammunition and brass are reasonably available, and that it's an uncomplicated cartridge to load ammunition for does significantly influence my decision as well.

I'd hire Echols to build my ultimate .416 Remington rifle on a Model 70 action with all of his usual refinements, including a fine French walnut stock, open sights, a 24" barrel, 1.5-5X Leupold Vari-X III scope, plus custom bottom metal and detachable scope mounts from Tom Burgess.

For my purposes, I don't see a practical or sentimental reason to go with anything else.

AD

HBH,
I would guess if a certain set of detachable rings became available that shop in Millville would accomodate you. That Fisher/Burgess 416 is truly a masterpiece, I'll bet it will do the business in grand style!
I like the 416 Remington myself after having owned several rifles so chambered. I've also hunted with and owned the 416 Rigby and 416 Weatherby. The Rigby is my sentimental favorite but overall the Remington does the same work in a smaller package so these days I'm leaning that way.

How about a 411 Bowman Magnum? When not in Africa, I can download, and use 41 Mag pistol Bullets for plinking and practice. Sean

Mike,

thanks for the education on the virtues of the .400 H&H. So it is basically a .375 H&H necked up to .416 cal ???

PC,

The are 411.

Here is a picture from African Hunter article.

http://www.african-hunter.com/new_h&h_cartridges.htm

Also, scroll down to the bottom of the following thread on another site and you see it parked between a 416 rem and 404 Jeffery. This example has only been die formed from 416 brass.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=11821

PS If you don't love the look of it then you need to stick that 585 up your arse and pull the trigger.

The 465 H&H is the same general idea but based on the 378 Wby size case. Sort of looks like a big version of the 375 H&H

Mike

[ 06-15-2003, 16:53: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Since I am an avid reloader, both rifles would be chambered for the 416 RUM...just the 375 RUM necked up to .416 but a full Rigby length action with a long throat to allow COL to go to 3.8 inches. Five in the box, with a nice heel drop to alow you to keep your head up and square with low iron sights and see under scope mounts.

A 1 in 12 twist rate to stabilize the 500 gr .416 Hawk bullets and heavy casts at reduced velocities. Bolt must have adjustable firing spring tension, and fully adjustable single set trigger for both the set and standard trigger configurations.

The 416 RUM is ideally suited to H4350 with heavy bullets, one of the Extreme powders insensitive to temperature. It easily duplicates the 458 Lott velocities with 500 gr bullets and runs only 100 fps slower than the 416 Weatherby with 400 grainers. You can still reach way out younder with 300 grainers @ 3150 or 350s @ 2800 fps and R15.

The case is still small enough that it works extremely well with reduced loads and AAs XMP 5744...55 grs of this and a good cast 350 grainer will down deer like lightning at 2300 fps out to 200 yards.

Don't forget that the "light" 416 300 grainers still have a respectable SD of .247, the same as the 165 gr .308, and the 300 gr Barnes X has many legitimate applications out West where the ranges get long and the wind blows hard. You might drift a few more inches than a 7MM loudenboomer, but the diameter and energy will still anchor the critter for good.

Still, if you park a loaded round next to a 375 H&H the difference is not all that striking, and we get rid of the silly belt while using the same bolt face. The small shoulder on the 416 RUM is more than adequate for proper headspacing, yet the profile is very smooth for good feeding. Just use the inexpensive and readily available 375 RUM brass and run it through the 416 RUM die and you are good to go.

For the biggest and toughest African game, the 416 solids will out penetrate the Lott, and 500 gr Hawk .416 soft point will expand to the same diameter as the .458 with a longer wound channel

MIke the .400 H&H looks very sleek and I defintely like it and it would fit in a standard size action

Brass could be made fom normal H&H .375 stuff it really has got a lot going for it.

Does the .465 H&H require the bigger action from my understanding it does ??

Nice project for one of you Argentine actions

Mike by the up my ass the traffic only goes one way and thats out

The Lott is a fine dangerous game round, but the original question concerned an African...not just dangerous game...cartridge, and asked wht loads you might use when not in Africa. This introduces the notion is some degree of flexibility, which is where the 416s shine. The 416 RUM offers the same energy and momentum as the Lott since both fire a 500 gr bullet at the same velocity. Yes, you give up 10% in diameter, but add 21% higher sectional density. They have the same bolt face, use the same magazine and the same action.

However, the 416 RUM is a fine plains round capable of taking large, tough game at great distances.

Limited to bolt action rifles, my two cents would go toward:

1) An original John Rigby .416 Rigby Oberndorf Magnum Mauser, in "as new" condition, original condition. Just look in the Speed et al Mauser Sporting Rifle book for the description.

2) And the working gun will be a Mauser 98 made to fit the 45/.338 Lapua (2.700" brass), with drop box, fiberglass stock, Pachmayr F990 pad, stainless 1 in 12" twist barrel 0.750" at the muzzle sporter contour, 23" from boltface to muzzle, barrel band sling, 3-position wing safety, pop-up peep and gold sourdough front with fold down single leaf express open rear sight, but mainly used with a QD scope, several scopes, all in Talley rings. All gun metal finished in black Teflon.

Sabot,

Where do you get your 500 gr. bullets for your .416 RUM? I shoot a .416 Rigby and would like to know where to get 500 gr. bullets for it. Lawdog

I love the 400 H&H case, it has all the virtures of the 300 and 375 H&H plus a larger bullet cross section and more weight..It is a fine idea..Should feed and better yet extract without difficulty, thats where this case shines.

I don't want one because I already have a 416 Remington and a 450-400 and I'm building another 375 only because I cannot be without one..

Also at this point in time you cannot get brass, reamers, dies or anything yet, so I will wait and see how she fairs then I might build one....

I have never found the 40 calibers lacking in stopping power and I shoot for the head on charges so caliber is not very important..

I never trust a shoulder shot with any caliber on an adrenaline pumped Buff, it will kill but when? and "when" may be mighty important, just my opine on that subject.

I have seen two buff take 9 and 13 shots from a 470 and a 500 N.E. the other from a 505 Gibbs and a 460 Wby. In both cases the bulls were wounded with gut type shots and got into the bush, got pumped with about 50 gals. of Adrenaline, and as usual refused to die, and instigated a Kamocazi charge..and the last shot in both cases was in the head up close...not an unusual turn of events, the toughness of a Buff once poorly shot has never ceased to amaze me...

The effectiveness of well placed shots still amazes me...

Sabot the best your gonna do is 450 gr. bullets for the 416...woodleigh recently introduced the 450 gr. in RN and PP, but they may be to long for the RUM, dunno.......The shoot great in my 416 Remington and I will be shooting them in Tanzania this year.