Who makes the finest bolt action rifles in the world?

14 August 2011, 07:45

RIP

Biebs,
Congratulations.
9.3x64 Brenneke, eh?
12.88 mm head diameter and 12.60 mm rim diameter by CIP, eh?
Lessee ... 12.88 mm = 0.5070866", x 1.86603 ...
That magazine box better be about 0.9462388" inside width at the rear, or about 0.950",
or I will be shocked.

Fortunately that is an easy one to fit in an M98 to perfection, so Hartman & Weiss surely will not disappoint on that one.

Now back to the discussion of what is finest.
Bill Clinton would require that we first define the meaning of the word "finest"
more clearly than simply comparison to the qualities of a Holland and Holland Royal double rifle.
I know of a man who had a "bespoke" H&H Royal double rifle built for him, 500 Nitro Express 3".
I met him on safari in Botswana. He tolerated my budget-rate Okovango buffalo and red lechwe safari presence in the same area he was hunting for a full bag.
Our camps were a couple of miles apart, but our paths crossed a couple of times.
After I shot out my two-head bag, my party pitched in to help haul his elephant meat out to the local village, with our Toyota bakkie.
He was kind enough to let me heft his double, H&H Royal.
It weighed 11.5 or 12 pounds, and it swung like a fence post!
It double-fired with the first pull of its trigger(s) at game, but it still killed the elephant with those first two shots.

Finest quality?

I think we must come up with a more specific definition of "finest" when referring to bolt action rifles.
My definition will certainly be different than that of many here.

15 August 2011, 01:36

Alberta Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:

I think we must come up with a more specific definition of "finest" when referring to bolt action rifles.
My definition will certainly be different than that of many here.

I agree with you, and by proxy with Bill Clinton (for the first and hopefully only time in my life).

I had a pair of Holland and Holland built .275 H&H bolt rifles, made back in the late 1920s or early 1930's, I don't recall the exact year.

With factory ammo, one shot very well, though honestly the stock work was not all that great....nothing to compare with current Gunmakers' Guild work by a loooooong ways.

The other would rupture primers and freeze the bolt closed with the same batch of factory ammo.

"Best Quality"? Any factory issue Savage Model 110 7 m/m Rem Mag I ever saw would beat that for both stock appearance and shooting capabilities!!

Without the definition, though, I can truly say I believe I'd be happy with pretty much any of the efforts of D'Arcy Echols or the late Dale Goens. I KNOW I'd like Jerry Fisher's work too.

15 August 2011, 02:29

jjs

quote:
Originally posted by adrian4444:
I know it's highly subjective, but I was wondering whom do you personally think is the maker of the absolute best bolt action rifles money can buy? The equivalent of a H&H Royal in the double rifles world.

As you noted, "highly subjective" and significantly influenced by personal taste.

Ralf Martini, Duane Wiebe, Hartmann & Weiss, Echols from what I have seen would be at the top of the list...there are others.

I have one of Ralf's rifles and having him build a couple more, very pleased to say the least.

15 August 2011, 04:03

PD999

Hartmann & Weiss.

They are the only ''best gun'' rifle makers who actually make their own Mauser 98 action. Gerhard Hartmann and Otto Weiss are in their 70's, but still work in their workshop every day, and oversee the build of every gun themselves.

All the others (Holland & Holland, Purdey, Westley-Richards) buy-in their new actions from European tool-makers (Prechtl, Johannsen), or else use original Mauser actions (whose steel quality may be suspect compared to modern steel).

And they all have a large team of ''faceless'' gunmakers; no-one whom one can talk to during the build.

No wonder the US and Canadian elite rifle-makers want to get their hands on a Hartmann & Weiss action for their ultra-custom projects!

15 August 2011, 05:26

Trax

HartmannWeiss as well as producing new actions, still use old/orig. mauser actions for some of their premium bolt rifle builds.

H&W manufacture their magnum action to better accommodate the large case head rounds like 416Rigby and 505 Gibbs.
They incorporate the reinforced left lug feature[as found on some orig. Oderndorf magnum actions], which results in thicker guide prongs, which are less prone to breaking off, compared to an ordinary stdM98 bolt head.

15 August 2011, 07:21

adrian4444

quote:
Originally posted by PD999:
Hartmann & Weiss.

They are the only ''best gun'' rifle makers who actually make their own Mauser 98 action. Gerhard Hartmann and Otto Weiss are in their 70's, but still work in their workshop every day, and oversea the build of every gun themselves.

All the others (Holland & Holland, Purdey, Westley-Richards) buy-in their new actions from European tool-makers (Prechtl, Johannsen), or else use original Mauser actions (whose steel quality may be suspect compared to modern steel).

And they all have a large team of ''faceless'' gunmakers; no-one whom one can talk to during the build.

No wonder the US and Canadian elite rifle-makers want to get their hands on a Hartmann & Weiss action for their ultra-custom projects!

You seem to know a lot about Hartmann and Weiss. I read somewhere that they have 9 gunmakers only which is a small number. Wouldn't this mean that they use out-workers and send their guns and rifles out to be stocked and finished in the trade? And when those two guys retire in a decade's time, what will happen to the company? Never heard about sons apprenticing or working with them

15 August 2011, 07:46

chuck375

Here's some pics of a Hartmann and Weiss 505 Gibbs (no it's not mine), a rifle to dream about ...

15 August 2011, 08:26

RIP

I wonder what the inside width at the rear of the box is on the H&W .505 Gibbs?
It sure is pretty.

15 August 2011, 08:31

Biebs

That looks like Kevin Kilday's photography at Westley Richards in Montana?

15 August 2011, 08:43

505ED

For the dollar
http://www.martiniandhagngunma....com/boltactions.htm

Martini would be hard to beat

I like Lon Paul's work too--if we are talking customs Lon is one of the best. His 416 Rigby/styled after the org. is awesome!
http://www.lonpaulcustomguns.com/

A little Pimp"ish for me but you cant go wrong saying Peter Hofer
http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_52s.php?id=1&lang=en

Ed

15 August 2011, 09:21

LionHunter

The answer to your question is: You've never heard of them and wouldn't know them if I told you.

15 August 2011, 11:37

Michael Robinson

In this market, more money does not necessarily buy more rifle.

"Name" often carries a high price, but does not necessarily guarantee a correspondingly high value.

I believe that value in hand, rather than exhorbitance of price paid out, is the proper measure of of how fine any rifle may be.

15 August 2011, 11:46

Grandpasez

You asked about 'rifles', so we are talking
some quantity. Not necessarily super customs in limited numbers.

In that frame of reference, I'd say Ruger 77 is best.Ed

15 August 2011, 13:03

reddy375

A lot of hunters get carried away with fancy wood, checkering, engraving and all the bells and whistles, but its far more important to have a rifle that functions reliably. This is especially important for heavy rifles where recoil plays a big role. A friend recently bought a brand new 500 Jeff from Mauser and has had all sorts of issues with feeding, sights coming loose etc, And that was a $10,000+ rifle!!!

15 August 2011, 16:28

I Bin Therbefor

Interesting that David Miller Co has not been mentioned or some of the other folks that populate the rolls of the guild.

15 August 2011, 18:49

jeffeosso

apparently some folks think the end all, be all, is the pre-64 model 70 .. i can NOT agree

http://forums.accuratereloadin...9411043/m/7871032061

15 August 2011, 20:44

Kebco

Almost anything made on a golmatic mauser action

15 August 2011, 21:42

aliveincc

Your reference to a H & H Royal is a bit telling. I'm not bashing H & H at all. Based upon my study(obsession) w/ rifles, I've come to the conclusion that "best bolt action rifle money can buy" depends on who you ask and what that person actually knows a/b using them and what they are supposed to be/do. Hartman & Weiss no doubt makes a good looking rifle and 'some' would buy one just to tell folks they own one---like a H & H Royal---whether they actually know shit a/b rifles or not. Are they 'better' than a Paul, Green, Weibe, Martini, Echols etc. ? I'd bet against it every time. No offense meant Biebs.

15 August 2011, 22:34

adamhunter

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
In this market, more money does not necessarily buy more rifle.

"Name" often carries a high price, but does not necessarily guarantee a correspondingly high value.

I believe that value in hand, rather than exhorbitance of price paid out, is the proper measure of of how fine any rifle may be.

+1

Like someone else said, its purely subjective and up to the individual as to what is best. I have a friend with a box stock Savage Model 11 in 223. Even in my inept hands that rifle will consistently shoot groups I did not think possible with a factory rifle. To my knowledge it has never misfired, jammed or malfunctioned in any way. And knowing my buddy, probably has never been cleaned. It's not pretty, but what more can you ask for from a $450 rifle.
Reliability and accuracy are what I look for. If I got that, then I got the best rifle regardless of price. Other folks are different.

Don't think for a minute I dont drool when I see a H&W, Echols or Wiebe rifle though.

16 August 2011, 02:07

Cross L

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
apparently some folks think the end all, be all, is the pre-64 model 70 .. i can NOT agree

http://forums.accuratereloadin...9411043/m/7871032061

Sorry about that but it does leave more for us-

SSR

16 August 2011, 14:04

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by aliveincc:
....Based upon my study(obsession) w/ rifles, I've come to the conclusion that "best bolt action rifle money can buy" depends on who you ask and what that person actually knows a/b using them and what they are supposed to be/do. Hartman & Weiss no doubt makes a good looking rifle and 'some' would buy one just to tell folks they own one---like a H & H Royal---whether they actually know shit a/b rifles or not. Are they 'better' than a Paul, Green, Weibe, Martini, Echols etc. ? I'd bet against it every time....

Otto & Gerhard, apart from having fine rifle building skills,are also avid hunters.
They have been buddies &/or hunting partners to Martin Hagn and Jerry Fisher, in some instance going back near five decades. Like the younger generation of field experienced & highly talented rifle building smiths[eg;Ralf Martini,Darcy Echols], they have a firm understanding of what constitutes intelligent design-construction of a hunting rifle.
When R.Martini,J.Fisher or Mr.Echols need to build a supreme no bullshit BigBoreBoltRifle, they begin with the H&W M98 action.

H&W .416 Rigby.

16 August 2011, 17:19

Brice

Trax,
Very nice photography. It really shows detail.
I also note that we're looking at a rifle probably in the $10,000 plus class, with Weaver rings and a Leupold scope. Obviously not chosen because they are inexpensive. I have two Leupold 1.5 x 5's, one on a 375, the other on a Lott. Ten years and no problems.

16 August 2011, 18:28

aliveincc

Weaver rings will not go on those bases. At least not as designed/built.

16 August 2011, 19:11

Biebs

quote:
No offense meant Biebs.

Hey, none taken. I think our thread got a bit off track. I took "Who makes...?" as being what company. Custom builders will make exactly what you want, and so in those terms that rifle will be "the best" for you.

17 August 2011, 00:29

Dago Red

I think the who question as other people have said it too much an opinion thing. There are many makers that make very fine rifles (with various building blocks) that functionally are equal to one another and the difference is in the aesthetics of them.

I will say of modern production actions from what I have heard and seen (have not handled in person, although have seen the H&W from about 6") the H&W actions are the tits. The action satterlee makes also is supposed to be very good.

I like Lon Paul's work and the fact that he doesn't seem to be stuck on one style, he can vary it according to customer tastes, look at his sight and you can see american, german and british styled rifles. I also like the stuff from Ralf and Wiebe's stuff is tits delicious also. (every since I saw that take down 500 he built I've been an admirer, and the fact that he shares his knowledge makes him a person I wish I could afford to deal with).

There are other guys that I hear great stuff about, Tip Burns, Dennis Olson (have used him, he's a good guy if a bit quiet sometimes, does good work and is timely, which is probably the rarest thing in gunsmithing) that could also turn out great products.

Visit the guild show and SCI and look at their work in person.

Definitely though the best work is almost exclusively done on this side of the pond (in bolt actions).

Red

17 August 2011, 00:50

PD999

quote:

... have seen the H&W from about 6", the H&W actions are the tits

... the best work is almost exclusively done on this side of the pond

17 August 2011, 07:57

mehulkamdar

A blatant plug for two friends and in no specific order Joel Dorleac and Dave Norin. In both cases, you can choose components from whatever source you want them from and the rifles will be built to your specifications.

Good hunting!

17 August 2011, 17:54

Kebco

Although many fine makers have been mentioned I am surprised that the Golmatic/Prechtl guns are not. They make the actions for most of the top flight European makers.
http://www.prechtl-waffen.de/Prechtl/de/Fotogalerie/

18 August 2011, 01:42

Bockhunter

Although many fine makers have been mentioned I am surprised that the Golmatic/Prechtl guns are not. They make the actions for most of the top flight European makers.
No, not for the most, for all.
:-)

18 August 2011, 08:29

CanadianLefty

D'Arcy Echols, Gene Simillion and Mark Penrod...

18 August 2011, 09:25

Trax

quote:
Originally posted by Dago Red:

Visit the guild show and SCI and look at their work in person.

Definitely though the best work is almost exclusively done on this side of the pond (in bolt actions).

http://www.waffenjung.de/html/home.html

http://www.johannsen-jagd.de/d...erklasse.php?navid=3

http://www.ritterbusch-rifles.com/

http://www.mayr-jagdwaffen.com/alois.php

http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com...t=search&id=5#ancre2

http://www.fanzoj.com/en/gunro...s/magnum_mauser.html

18 August 2011, 15:43

JoeR

Also should mention Stephen Heilmann. Larry Vickers knows a thing or two about custom guns and says, "he is in my opinion the single best maker of custom guns in the world today."

18 August 2011, 22:40

AFreeman

Finest BOLT action rifles???

It is a loaded question to say the least.

imho the best bolt guns being made today are in the U.S. by a small handfull of talents.
There are a few outside the U.S. in Europe and even Africa.

I also feel these rifles are superior to those rifles built by the best makers throughout the last century.

Many of the names are already mentioned.

Lon Paul
Ralph Martini
D'Arcy Echols
Jack Haugh
Ryan Breeding
Duane Wiebe
Joe Smithson
Mark Cromwell
Gene Simillion
Jerry Fisher
Larry Amrine
Mark Moon
Don Klein
Paul Hodgens
Andrew MacFarlane
Stephen Heilmann

That is who comes to immediate mind but is certainly not a complete list, I have sawdust in my brain and tend to forget others...sorry.
There are a lot of others whom you rarely hear about but are greats, both here in the U.S. and Europe.
I have seen some wonderful work at the IWA show from German and Austrian small shop gunmakers.
Of course one never knows how well they will function from an unknown, but you sure know about the ones above and you know they will work everytime.

Anyone of those above I would much rather have over a name gun from England which I would just sell and then get one of the above to build me a gun or by a previous built by them.

There are other great younger talents on the horizon who will surely make a name for themselves as time unfolds.
Guys like Reto Buehler and Michael Ullman.

Of course there are others in both of those lists.

18 August 2011, 23:35

Bryan W

I would have to say D'Arcy Echols. Below are two .505 Gibbs rifles on H&W 98M actions.

Bryan

19 August 2011, 00:19

Dave Bush

quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
I would say Hartmann & Weiss for bolt rifles as well. My first and only Hartmann & Weiss is being delivered this week, in the 9.3x64 Brenneke. It will be the treasure of my magazine rifles.

Now Biebs, you know you won't hang on to this thing for more than six months or until something else catches you eye

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).

19 August 2011, 02:39

Dago Red

Wow Bryan, that 505 is awesome!! and in high resolution pics even, sometimes things that even naked eye you can't pickup show in pics like that and I don't see any flaws.

I should have worded my earlier statement better, I realized after I posted that I had worded badly but was in a hurry and didn't have time to edit.

I should not have said exclusively. what I meant to say was that there is none BETTER, though those posted from other countries turn out work that is on par, it is a holdover opinion many have that you have to go to europe to get the best. I also think that there are many more builders turning out the work here than over there. We've only chipped the iceburg, and I'm sure many guys don't want to throw their personal smiths name out because they don't want their timely deliveries and good costs messed with.

Red