/

Alf-- I do not know an easy way to say some of this, so please accept my apologys ahead of time if anything say affends you.

That said here goes.

First off, on both uphill and downhill you should of been (depending on the angle) holding anywhere from right on, to down to the brisket line. I'm guessing here a bit as I don't know the angles and I don't know your set up. To not hold this way on either shot was a sure way to shoot over. That is a slam dunk.

This is something that many people don't understand and most won't because most won't take the time to get out and practice it and sort it out.

As for the wind another tricky thing but you had a gauge, did you have wind chart either commited to memory or attached to your buttstock? (for me it is much easier to attch it to the stock)

Last fall on a deer hunt in eastern Montana my buddy had similar shots at 488. We read the wind and the angle, he held on the rump and wack down went the first one. He held the same for victum #2 and boom wack and down she went as well.

To me several things here could of helped you out a bit. Your verbage about the ranges would leave me to believe you probably haven't practiced much if any to 500. In all honesty to 500 is certainly very doable. To do it you need the mindset that you can do it, then you need a lot of practice and I do mean a lot. My favorite long range rig and serious rifle is on its 8th tube. It is also set up with Premier reticles to 700 yards and I practice enough to feel quite comfy to that range.

Trajectory and distance is the most worried about and talked about equation. But, to me the angle and the wind is the most important and the toughest to prepare for. If you've done your homework and your practice a shot at these ranges is very doable and one should expect a first round kill. If, you've done your homework.

And if you have the knowledge which comes thru practice of how to set yourself up for the shot.

Now if a person has not then they need to stick to the ranges to which they are practiced and prepared for! I am always amazed at how people say that to shoot past this or that range (usually 350 or so really gets people chatting) is just something that people should not do and so on. You've heard and read the stories. And then they'll go on a hunt their shot is a X range, a range they've said is not wise and a range they not practiced to and boom they take the shot. With no clue as to how to do it, I've seen it many times in the field both hunting for myself and professionally while guiding.

Sorry Alf if I am using your story a bit for my soap box.

To relate this story to the gym it is kind of like saying to bench 300 is nuts. But, to the fella who has practiced and lifted for years it is entirely doable. Now if the guy has not been working up to having a few plates on the bar when he trys for 300 he's gonna get squashed.

Bottom line is next time you'll be that much more prepared and things will go a bit better.

If you want to be able to kill at those rangees then all it takes is practice and time behind the butt.

By the way Alf thanks for the great pics, wish I'd of been there it had to be a great hunt.

I can relate to you about scarfing the ribs. The last time I had sheep was in Sonora on a hunt I guided down there for desert rams. Dang did that borego protein ever taste good!

Have a great weekend

MD

/

Alf this is complex Gen Boddington has done an article or two on this topic that I forgot years ago. Mostly flat shots here,I am sure some Mtn Men will know and post. However ,that is awesome country ,you are lucky or touched by God for that great experience ,rugged and beautiful,I hope you can go back for another try. Thanks for sharing and congrats to your buddy.

Alf-as for holding under/over this comes thru practice and feel more so than anything.

For years I shot a lot of chucks. In the first year we thought we were something to hit em out to about 350. After that we would back up to 450 and then start having at them. In the country we would shoot them, the ranges could get quite long and the wind and angles could be torcherous. But boy did it ever give me some good lessons. We also spent a ton of time (and rounds) shooting at rocks under the same conditions and it was very educational as well.

Now if you're not comfy holding off hair (either below or above then I would certainly suggest that you just don't take the shots. At least not until you find those shots in your comfort zone.

Next it sounds like you had plenty of time to watch the rams b4 you shot, excuse my bluntness but why in the heck would you not range them b4 you shot?

Shooting at long range takes practice,discipline and the knowing of when to and when not to take the shot.

How much practice b4 you went did you do in the 400-500 yard range?

It sounds to me like you were not prepared to take the shot and therefor you should not of taken it.

Alf, once again I offer aplogys if I offend with my directness.

MD

chance favors the prepared

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Now the question:

What are the theories / rules of thumb regaring uphill and downhill shooting as well as those very long shots ?

Alf,

I use a mil-dot master:
http://www.mildot.com/

The Mildot Master® is an analog calculator designed along the principle of a slide rule, utilizing logarithmic and inverse logarithmic scales developed specifically for performing the following operations:

Rapid and simple calculation of range to target, based on a measurement of the target with a mildot reticle, by aligning the estimated target size directly opposite the mildot measurement, and then reading the range at an index mark.



Rapid and simple calculation of the amount of sight correction necessary to compensate for bullet drop and/or wind drift for a given range, enabling the shooter to determine either the equivalent telescopic sight adjustment (minute-of-angle, or MOA) or the equivalent hold-over (mils), by reading equivalents in both MOA and mils directly opposite the bullet drop/wind drift figure.



Additionally, angle of fire for uphill or downhill shots can be accurately measured, and the up/down compensation can be closely calculated to reduce the errors such shots can induce.

I use it w/ a mil-dot scope, but it works w/ any scope if you have the ability to range the target. In your scenario, as long as you had your ballistic data on the back of the mil-dot master; it would have added about 30-45 seconds max additional time and you would have had the sight correction for elevation and wind. This is a vast improvement to using a pocket calculator and cosine.

Gary

R/

Alf,
Bless you for your worshipful wilderness experience. Amen.

Of course it is about figuring the actual horizontal distance to where the up or down vector comes into the target position. Too tricky for cosine calculations in the field.

I carry a note card under an elastic ammo carrier on the butt of the rifle. I mark out the 0, 15, 30, and 45 degree trajectory in 25 yd increments out to 600 yards as the Raven flies, and show the 10 mph wind correction. It covers the front and back of a 3"x5" note card, for the specific load and rifle, and it is laminated against weather. Write small. With the gift of Near Sightedness, I simply lift up my 20/10 vision hunting spectacles to read fine print up close.


I have hunted the Tazlina Glacier area of the Chugach Mountains in Alaska. We landed in a Super Cub on floats, at One Shot Lake, mile high, hemmed in by steep mountains for 270 degrees except for the approach valley that dropped off below where a stream trickled out of the lake. It was called "One Shot" because you only got one shot at landing, and one shot at taking off.

The bush pilot was old, not bold. He took me out first, then went back and got the Dall sheep. The Super Cub couldn't handle much weight and get off that little alpine pond on floats.

So, I understand the reverence that such country brings, having climbed and sunned and seen the starry night skies there, in view of Denali for a week. We ate Mountain House dehydrated, MRE's, and Dall sheep, the best meat I have ever eaten, succulent from the grass and wild flowers of the alpine meadows.

Well worth your while and a whetting of the appetite for another trip and a bigger ram.

/

Alf,
with enough pratice 500 yard shots can be made consistently, but very few people are up to that level of skill. At one time I would have been pretty comfortable with 500 yard shot but right now I havent been praticing enough and I wouldn't even attempt it.

Alf- First off, shooting at over 500yrds at game in steep terrain with just a guestimate at wind drift is always an iffy thing no matter how much trigger time you have at the range. Somehow, shooting off a backpack while winded with your heart pumpin just doesn't happen at the range where all those "great long shots" only seem to exist. At my ranch we have a 12 inch diameter steel gong at a close 365 yrds(antelope/mule deer kill zone target for poin t blank range shooting) at an uphill angle of 15 degrees. I have challenged each of my "long shot hero friends to hit it with one shot without giving them the range or angle or wind speed. They have used range finders, mil dot scopes , eyeball, etc. ONLY ONE PERSON HAS EVER HIT IT THE FIRST TIME and this was with a Shepard scope equipped 300 win mag and this was done by a 1000 yrd competative shooter who can read the wind. So much for REALITY!!! As for up and down shots, most people will read the angle wrong and forget to hold low.A rangefinder will give you the distance to the target, but you need to know the actual horrizontal distance the bullet would travel to know the bullet drop. 98% of the time on long shots up or down hill people shoot over the top as they forget to use the corrected drop for the angle( which is very hard to determine anyway). Personally, I now use a Shepard scope matched to the cartridge ( usually a .300 win mag or 7mm-stw with heavy bullets) to range the game quickly and like RIP have a laminated card taped to the stock for ESTIMATING wind drift and DROP.If in the mountains, a angle drop/range table helps particularily with a shpard scope. I can't guage angles worth a darn anyway, but I remember to shoot low. Honestly, I have shot Hartebeest in the Karoo at over 450yrds, but like yours, the results were NOTHING to Brag about( gut shots because I got the wind wrong by 12 inches). Now, some game require real long shots and like golf you only remember those great shots and rapidly forget the pathetic attempts. If when all is said and done, I have to hold off hair, I usually deceide to pass it up and try and get closer. Whenever,I've had that level of maturity, I've been rewarded with a clean kill. Me, I've sadly learned my limits and don't pretend to be any better shot than I actually am. -Rob

It is always a wonderful feel to be out in God's House! Thanks for sharing your memories and photos!

Alf,

E-mail John Porter of Morning Creek Outfitting in Wyoming. His address is: <mco@wyominghunts.com>

He specializes in long distance shooting for sheep. He wrote an interesting article about it in the las issue of "Big Game Hunting Adventures".

He brings along a specialized rifle for his clients and they have been very succesful.

First off,
I empathize with your tendonitis. I developed that from running in jump boots in the army. I was on crutches for six weeks, and wore tennis shoes with the back cut out of the right one for another eight weeks.
Another consideration is to get a Swarovski scope with the Horus reticle. I thought these were just a gadget when I first read about them. Now, a lot of the spec ops snipers are using these in Afghanistan, Iraq and wherever. I'll pm some specific information on how they work. Basically, once the rifle come ups are determined for a given load under specified altitude, temperature and moisture conditions the enclosed PDA calculates a "cheat sheet" that you tape to the stock. You can also figure a long shot with the computer at the time you are preparing to take it. It takes into account up and down hill. The reticle looks busy at first, but isn't with use. There is a large grid. When you are taking a shot you are always putting an actual grid intersection on the animal/terrorist, so you don't have the problem with aiming off of the target.

When shooting with a conventional scope you assume that the direct line of sight to the target is the hypotenuse of a right triangle. You figure out the length of the horizontal component of the triangle, and that is the distance you hold for.

For example: the sheep is 500 yards away, and three hundred yards above you. The horizontal component is 400 yards, so you hold the cross hairs as you would for a 400 yard shot. The mildot master will allow you to calculate the horizontal component. There is another sniper tool called the "slope doper". You point it at the target and it tells you the angle up or down. It gives you a cosine value to multiply by your lasered distance to tell you the horizontal distance. I will send you sources for both tools. Brownells sells the Mildot master. finally there are some CD ROM programs that are basically tutorials in long range shooting and up and down slope shooting. Those are followed by an infinite variety of situations where you select the scope picture and tap the "fire" button on your mouse. One is called "shooter ready". These really help your mind get itself wrapped around the mental aspect. It is like dry firing to practice trigger control.

Wind is a bitch until you have shot a few (several) thousand rounds at long range, and then she becomes your friend.

She use to be my friend. I haven't shot nearly enough the last five years so she just laughs at me these days.

lawndart

Great story, and wonderful pictures. Looks like you have a new obsession, ha, ha, ha.

I am quite new at the forum and don't know ALF.
He might be mister Big Guy, but I am still
quite a bit surprised to see all the praises and "thanks for sharing your adventure."

To hunt at distances one are not familliar with shows a lack of respect for the game that is truly not very impressive.

As a sniper in the Royal Norwegian Army in my younger days I was quite a fair shot at distances out to 800meter, but that was almost 20 years ago and no way would I fire at not wounded animals at distances beyond 300m today. There are to many things that can go wrong. I have made spectacular shots at 800m, and also missed badly at half that range. While that is ok when fiering at enemy soliders, game is quite another cup of tea.

Fiering shot after shot and then finely shooting him in the gut. And you guys are impressed???

Nice pictures, absolutely, but around our campfire you would have to buy your own beer.

Alf
You can share my campfire any time & I will buy the beer.
Just Jim

Bent, I don't think that anyone is impressd with the shooting! We are somewhat impressed with the fact that Alf reported it, as it happened.
You will notice that no one has yet told Alf what to do, just referred him to detailed writings and articles!
I think we are all agreed that shots above 300 yards, in windy conditions, are a whole 'nother ball game.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Bent, I don't think that anyone is impressd with the shooting! We are somewhat impressed with the fact that Alf reported it, as it happened.
You will notice that no one has yet told Alf what to do, just referred him to detailed writings and articles!
I think we are all agreed that shots above 300 yards, in windy conditions, are a whole 'nother ball game.
Peter.

Well, I did not intend to offend Alf in any way, but when such a lack of hunting moral is exposed I will speek up against my king, God, heck - even Elmer Keith himself.

When he after showing off microscopic signs of regret, plan to get a 5 pounds magnum calibered rifle to improove his long range hunting...
That is not the way to go.

If he is half the man you treat him like, he is man enough to take critic.

/

Hi ALF,

you have a PM!

Cheers,

elwood.

Here is the Horus reticle:



It features horizontal as well as vertical stadia:



This PDA calculates, and does so quite nicely:



You can print out a cheat sheet for your rifle stock:



I am going to use this reticle in a 16x scope on my 338 Lapua Magnum next season.

lawndart

http://www.mildot.com/

Here is the Mildot Master:



Here is the back side:



As you can see it is a multi function nomograph. I have used this a lot in the past with .308 rifles. It really works well if you want to use a reticle that is subtended into miliradians. Just add practice.

LD

Here are the physics:



Fortunately you won't have to take coriolus or earth precesion effects into account at the ranges in question.

This book is a very easy read. All the formulas are simplified, but don't effect the results by more than .1" at 100 yards.

Lawndart

/

Hi ALF,

that's true I was looking hard for a good packframe and finally found the Tatonka "Lastenkraxe" - I believe it to be the best there is on the market!

And it is so versatile with the strap-on pack. You can walk in to your camp spot with the pack on and then get rid of the pack and take just the frame for stalking and getting the meet out.

But I wonder how you attached the rifle to it? Can you take it off easily for a quick shot? How is it fixed? There is nothing more important than to have your hands free in difficult terrain!

Thanks for the info,

elwood.

Originally posted by ALF:
Mr Fossdal:

You think I have disrespect for game, Unethical maybe ?

- You describe how your rifle was 3" high at 100 meters. This mean it would be ca. 35" low at 460 meters. You start holding over, even if you obviously have little experience with this kind of shooting. What do you call that? B.

Well this was a first for me, as a South African and African hunter I have no prior knowledge of how it is done, or should be done. maybe you do so why not share your advice?

- Practise on paper, not live animals. And stay away from 5 pouds rifles. B.


BTW the Ram died where he stood, not an inch did he go. He dropped where he stood and the shot was deadly as the liver was hit in major way.


- At that range most rifles will have spread of 4" in vacuum. With the elements moist, temperature and air moovement, very fast double up. Then comes the shooters skill. He could have been hit in the hart or belly, either way pure coincidence. B.

So If you wish to condemn me fine, maybe we can trade some insults, Like for instance how ethical is it to hunt a Moose with a 6.5x55 as is commonly done in your part of the world?

- Holy Crap. Insults?? Is that how you take critic? About 6,5x55,OK, here goes. Most mooses are shot mostly at distanses under 100 meters. The bones in moose are much softer than in red deer. It is actually easy to shoot, nothing like the plains game of Africa. The 6,5x55 have always been loaded with bullets with very good SD and at moderate speed, wich gave even traditional thinjacketed bullets good weight retention. It is also very easy to shoot, wich means good shot placement. A Man like Finn AAgaard thoght 7x57 was a good round for elk
(wich is abouth the same size as our moose), he enjoyed the hunt and shot them up close. B.

You see where I come from, that would be deemed unethical and in some instances illegal by law ?

- Absolutely. Yor plains game are alot thougher to shoot. But...were those laws made by beureaucrats or hunters? I seem to remember a man named WDM Bell who was rather fond of his little 6,5. But, he was only shooting elephants. B.

Have a good one:

Alf

- You too, sir. B.

Edit: Sorry to have messed up the quoting, but it should be able to understand. B.

Here is a Slope Doper, and no, it is not a North Korean smoking opium:



It makes figuring effective range of up and down hill shots a snap. Shot.

lawndart

PS Much more of this talk and I'll be getting out the old ghillie suit and slithering around the country side, mmmmmmmmm, not!

Effects of Shooting Uphill or Downhill

The vertical drop of a bullet below its line of departure is practically the same whether the target is uphill, downhill or at the same level as the gun. That does not imply, however, that the sight adjustment or the allowance in aiming required to hit a target at any range is unaffected by the slope of the gun-target line. The reason for this apparent contradiction is that the effects of an aiming allowance or an elevation adjustment of the sight are in a plane perpendicular to the line of sight, which, in the case of uphill or downhill firing, is not the same as the vertical plane in which the bullet drop is measured. The reason we must take account of the slope of the gun-target line is illustrated in the following examples.

Suppose we are firing a .30-caliber 180-grain bullet having a ballistic coefficient of C1=.450 and a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps, under standard sea-level atmospheric conditions, and that we have sighted-in the rifle at 200 yards. Suppose further that we wish to shoot at a bullseye on a tall vertical target 700 yards away on the same level as the gun. We can calculate that, if we were to fire with the sight adjusted for the sight-in range of 200 yards, the bullet would strike about 147 inches low on the vertical target. Therefore, to hit the bullseye we must either (1) aim 147 inches high or (2) make an elevation adjustment of about 21 moa (147/7) on our sight.

Now suppose that all the conditions are the same as those described above except that the tall vertical target is on higher ground at an uphill angle of 30 degrees. Since the vertical drop of the bullet is the same as before, the bullet would strike the vertical target at a point 147 inches below the bullseye if we fired with the sight adjusted for the sight-in range. However, as we look upward at a 30-degree angle toward the target, the vertical line between the bullet hole and the center of the bullseye would appear to be less that 147 inches long because of the angle from which we are viewing it. We can calculate by trigonometry that a vertical line 147 inches long would appear to be only about 127 inches (147*cos 30o) when viewed from a location 30 degrees below. Therefore, we could hit the bullseye by (1) aiming 127 inches high or (2) by making an elevation adjustment of about 18 moa (127/7)) on our sight.

By reasoning similarly, we can see that a 147-inch vertical line would appear to be about 127 inches long when viewed from 30 degrees above the target as well as from 30 degrees below, and therefore the same allowance in elevation must be made in either case.

Lawndart-where in the heck can a fella get one of those slope dopers?

Thx

MD

All this balistic jargon means zilch in the field and only works on measured groung...Although a rifle shoots high on uphill and downhill shots at those distances you have updraft to deal with that will move a bullet as much as two or even six feet..I have seen this shooting rockchucks in Hells Canyon and the Snake River Canyon near my house....

The only thing you can do is carefully squeeze one off from a good rest with a center to high shoulder shot have someone or you call the shot as you did when you called it high, they hold lower for the next shot...it is the only thing that works, the rest is pure BS.....

also you have to allow for the wind and that is the wind between you and the target, not so much as where you are shooting from. This is the hard part, holding over or under is not nearly as hard as doping wind in the field again look to where the first shot goes and make the necessary adjustment...

This is why any shot over 300 to 350 yards is not a particularly good idea as you can wiggle one off into the gun or leg as easy as you can wiggle one into the heart. It can work either way, or as my dad once told me when I rolled a nice buck running at over 400 yards offhand, "Son, that deer zigged when he should have zagged, it had nothing to do with your shoot'en skills" how right he was....

Darn I gotta start editing my posts as I type faster than I think or something like that.

Nawww I ain't that interested in that. I have neither the time or the incentive to check my spelling and so 4th!

300 yards isn't quite long distance, but its getting there, and it brings with it a host of headaches.

From Federal's ballistics tables (nice for comparison -- you'd need to check your rifle),
if you're zeroed at 100, you have about a 3.5" drop in the next 100, a 10" drop the next, 15" the next, and 25" the next. So, past 300 yards, you're dropping 1.5" for each 10 yards... on the level. The effect of gravity is reduced when you shoot either uphill or downhill (multiply g by the cosine of the angle from horizontal; target foreshortening isn't an issue with 3D animals). If your judgement of distance isn't right, or you have the angle wrong, by the time that bullet has taken the time to get out there, you're getting to the edge of a guessing game (much bigger as distance increases). Then there's time -- even 1/2 sec is enough for an animal to take a step and turn a good vital hit into a gutshot. Plus, a 10mph wind-drift can move that POI 7.7". But, the wind won't be constant over the entire range -- you not only will see cross-wind, but you'll see headwind and tailwind effects, and if you're shooting over a valley, you'll even see updrafts and downdrafts.

Ray's right: best way is to take a shot at/near the game, see how it hits with the aid of a spotter, and then take your shot. Even at 1000 yrd shoots, you get 2 or 3 spotters to try to get your windage and elevation right before you begin shooting for score. Well, 300 yrds isn't 1000 yards, and the time to target isn't that great, BUT, you're starting to see enough of those effects that it can affect a clean kill...

Dan

ALF

I'll think you find this article of interest
http://www.wildsheep.org/magazines/article_uphill_shooting.htm

PGW Defence Technologies website http://www.pgwdti.com/

Lawndart- where can I procure one of those slope dopers

Cheers
/JOHAN

Source for slope doper:

http://www.triadtactical.com/store/item/pkzo/Shooting_S...oks/Slope_Doper.html

As we are speaking, some Pashtuns and Tajiks are taking 175 grain HPBT's to the nugget out to 300 meters, and center chest hits out to 700 meters; up hill, down hill, cross wind, etc.

http://www.horusvision.com/hv.cfm?pg=demosystem

lawndart