Lar45,
Thanks for the reference to the "pressure guessing" article in _Handloader_. I shall check it out. I think I have read everything else you have referred to, including also Graeme Wright's book.

You are right, the consensus is stick to RL-15 and Dacron fiber wad as filler, about 4 to 5 grains of the Dacron fluff.

The old pressure-time curve thing with slower powders seems to have been a problem with thin barreled antique double rifles. That may be akin to shooting smokeless shotgun shells in an old Damascus barreled BP shotgun.

I think that the modern double rifle (with the stronger and lighter steels found in all firearms post WWII) should have no problems with the slower powders.

The pressure-time curves of RL-15 and H4350/IMR4350 (or even H4831/IMR4831) would really not be very different anyway, just a slightly lower peak pressure occurring slightly farther down the barrel, with the slower powder. I am sure my 10.75 pound Merkel with its massively heavy barrel contours in "Krupp Stahl" would handle it well.

However, indeed, RL-15 and Dacron is the universal recommendation.

Just weigh some a few times to get a feel for how much fluff comes out to 5 grains and then pluck and stuff by eyeball/feel. Everybody has their own technique. I roll it up into a ball and stuff it on top of the powder.
JCN

I actually weigh mine. I put the powder charge in 5 cases, then pull off a tuft and drop it on the scale then add or take off abit till it's close, then take a small screw driver and stuff it down the neck. This will also help if you accidentally knock a filled case over. Then add bullets and finish the 5 and start over. It might get kind of tiresome if I was doing it for 45acps or something, but isn't too bad for only 20-40rnds at a whack.

Maybe it's the lower load density? Have you tried the RL15 loads? Is there a noticible recoil difference with the 10gns more of H4350?
I have not tried it without a wad. I'll have to see if I can get some of the foam wads.

Ok let me ask you guys a question. I've been reloading for my Searcy .470 for about a year now. I like the barnes X and their load is 97grs of H4350. While you have some capacity left as you can hear the powder shake after seating I've never had a federal 215Mag primer fail to ignite the load. I've shot well over 300 of these and haven't had one misfire.

I also use a reduced practice load that Butch recomends of 40gr of XMP 5477 just for playiong around with and have fired probably about 150 of these without a single misfire.

Am I just getting lucky?

At what point do you guys start wadding your loads? 97gr of H4350 fills the case to just below the shoulder. Should I consider wadding it?

Butch says not a problem with the barnes load as far as wadding goes. He does say you have to use wadding with the RL powders what's up with that?

It is interesting that Butch Searcy is endorsing the H-4350 load. I have an e-mail from him in answer to my inquiry as to what he uses to regulate his .470 NE rifles. He stated that the Federal loads are used unless another load is requested by the customer.

As far as whether you are lucky ? You may be. The issue in not using a wad with the case only partially filled is not one of misfires. The two potential problems are: 1) squib loads with the bullet lodging in the barrel, and 2)secondary detonation down the barrel.

It's been pretty well worked out that one is much better off using wads in nitroexpress loads which leave a lot of space between the powder and seated bullet. I've been doing it for about 2 years with no problems

Geronimo

Butch regulated my gun with 108 grs. of IMR-4831 and it also shoots 85 grs. of RL-15 with a 4 gr. dacron load to the same poi and will hit POI with a lead bullet load that I have tried...

Geronimo,
where do you order foam plugs from? I have been experimenting with ear plugs purchased locally and they work pretty darn good and save me weighhing dacron..but dacron cleans a barrel at the same time if thats of interrest to anyone..

Boy. I just don't understand why more people haven't gotten into the these foam wads. I'm reading about pulling toys apart, going to fabric stores, pulling tufts of Dacron off and weighing them. Man, all that seems like a lot of busy work... or maybe it's just me. You can order a bag or two of these little wads, they're cut to size. You drop your powder, stuff in the wad, seat the bullet, done. Am I missing something ?

Geronimo

Could I use fine steel wool instead of dacron?



Seriously, if you have a good quality modern double, why not just use a slower burning powder that fills the case instead of using a filler?

surestrike,
I'm sure those loads listed will work, but I, for one, wouldn't like the extra recoil of the 108gr. load of IMR-4831. Trust me, there will be a perceptable difference with 19gr. more powder!

500 grains,
I use a similar load in my .500 NE : 94gr. RL 15, Fed 215M primer, and I too end up with a small space in the case. I just cut one of the foam wads in half and it very neatly takes up that space. Is it necessary ? I don't know. I do think it is necessary with the .470 and similar NE cases and I seem to be able to get that magic 2130-2150 fps. with a grain or two less powder in the .500 NE.

I am so happy that these RL 15 loads have come to the fore. My only regret is that thus far, no one has developed a load with a powder which will give regulating velocities at a one to one ratio with Cordite. I can only imagine how nice it would be shooting a .470 with 75gr. of powder rather than 89gr. or shooting a .500NE with 80gr. of powder rather than 94gr. To illustrate this point I'll relate a personal experience. Before I began reloading for my doubles I used to buy my .500 NE from Superior. These loads shot well but I was only getting 2050-2105 fps and the recoil was, well, barely tolerable. the first time I tried the RL 15 loads I was admittedly skeptical. But after I fired the first two rounds I couldn't believe it. The recoil was about 25% less, velocity 2139 fps, and both shots in the black about 1.5" apart. I let my buddy shoot the gun. He has a .470 and had stated in the past that he did not shooting my .500 because of the recoil. He was more impressed than I with the reduction in recoil.

After the above session, I went home and immediately pulled a bullet on one of the Superior rounds. It contained 110gr. of a powder which looked like H-4831. So thank you very much, but I'll be using my RL 15 loads and my little foam wads until that dream powder, which gives a one to one ratio with Cordite, is developed.

Geronimo

Please see this thread on NitroExpress.com.

The Seyfried article is posted there. RELOADING FOR THE NITRO EXPRESS

Geronomo, that is an interesting perspective on the Re15 versus Superior loads. Unless my information is mistaken, Superior uses 110.0 grains IMR4831 in its 500 NE ammo. THat is the load my gun is regulated for and it snaps my neck so hard that my head almost falls off. I will try our your 94.0 Re15 and half a wad to see how my rifle likes it.

No one has mentioned the "foam wad" boogey man that Ross Seyfried dropped on us in one of his epistles.



He said that foam wads can split barrels, or ring chambers, too. He hinted that he would say more about it, sounding unsure of the poop. He never has returned to that topic.



I have merrily cut my own wads from sheets of packing foam, using a chamfer sharpened 50 BMG case as a cookie cutter, until Ross dropped that bomb.



He has never fully explained it. False alarm? I do wish he would clear it up.



Anyway, the only way to go is RL-15 and polyester fluff, if you want to avoid all nagging doubts of safety, have less recoil, and better accuracy.



The Dacron/polyester fluff ball gives uniform ignition and best uniformity of velocities and accuracy with RL-15.



For RL-15, even the Federal 216 "flame thrower" primer (with no wad) is not as good as the 215 used with a wad of fluff.



BTW, isn't IMR 3031 a 1:1 replacement for Cordite on weight basis? Just doesn't have the bulk of Cordite and would require even more volume of filler fluff, and might produce even higher peak pressures.



The only peace-of-mind choice is RL-15 and Dacron if the load might find its way into an antique double rifle.

Daggaron,

The 3031 load I have heard for the .470 is 75.0 grains and a big puff of dacron. But there has been speculation about pressure spikes from this combination.

Has anyone tried cardboard wads in their double rifle? I have some cardboard wad material for black powder cartridges from buffalo arms and a .510 cutter and I was wondering if that would work our.

If failing memory (I remember old girlfriends figures, but not their personalities or spending habits) serves, I've seen the 3031 concept in old editions of "Cartridges of the world", and Reloaders digest. I'm thinking about trying the RL-15 and Dacron two step in my 416 Rigby. Any one have an idea for a load? Not to worry, those CZ's are strong...
I'll send Ross a question on foam wads via Handloader . We should get an answer by next Christmas.

Here is a link to article in question.
Foam thread
I started the thread.

A gap or airspace is what cause barrel splits and blown doubles with powders that do not fill the case sufficiently...

foam plugs or dacron have nothing to do with it, although it can happen with them if they do not have enough filler to block out that airspace...RL-15 is a fine double gun powder but so is IMR-4831...

In fact RL-15, IMR-4350 will recoil less than IMR-4831, the faster powders have always recoiled less...Most blowup occured with IM$-3031 and not enough filler...

The internet is a myth monger, and most comments on these powders blowing up guns comes from reads and not experience IMO, one guy says oh it blows up guns and the rumor runs amuck...

There is more crap out there about doubles than one can imagine, and at one time I believed all of it, but the more I shoot these guns and load for them, and study them, the more convienced I am that its mostly horse hockey mixed with voodoo...

I think overloads are the primary reason for split barrels, and folks useing black powder guns with smokeless powder,cases not being trimmed, and the normal mistakes that blow up or cause problems with guns, except the doubles blow a lot quicker than bolt guns....and they shoot off the face with just a warm load sometimes...many of them are old and off the face to start with and the shooter does not know it...they operate at about 14 tons and thats not a lot of PSIs...I have been shown so many doubles that the owner was proud off only to show him that his gun was off the face because he had no clue what that ment..

Proper care and sending these guns to a professiona smith is good advise..I usually sent my for inspection every two year or 300 rounds to David Yale or Lee Labaas...

Today I have a Searcy and don't have to deal with these problems any more...its a much tougher gun.

When you try that 94 gr. RL 15 you'll get hooked on it, for sure. Your gun may need a grain more or a grain less, but recoil is just a tad more than a .470. My buddy thinks it's about the same.

On the card wads, Graeme Wright in his book says that he used to use them but got some squib loads once, after the cartridges had been jostling around in a vehicle. Discovered it was due to the wads flipping sideways in the case.

Geronomo

In my 500 NE I have used 96 grains Re15 with a 570 grain bullet and no filler. There is about 1/4" free space with that load but not misfires.