I have noticed in descriptions of the 404 Jeffery's recoil two quite different descriptions.

One is how modest it is, one PH or outfitter was quoted as saying it was his favorite DG cartridge for ladies because of the recoil characteristics, comments about vintage 404s, but being fired now day,s as having soft recoil even with a steel but plate, it was a favorite caliber of game departments because of moderate recoil and so on.

Then, comments like, it recoils half again as much as a .375H&H, it is a good step up from the .375H&H, if you can handle the recoil, or above 2250 or 2300 fps
or some stated velocity, recoil becomes bothersome ect.

I thought that even the earlier loads got between 2250 to 2300 fps, they weren't real light loads then and now 2400 fps is the norm.

Some times I read the descriptions about the recoil and have to check if it was the 404 that is being talked about.

Is there that much difference in recoil because of velocity differences or what.

Of all cartridges, I have noticed this mostly in the 404 Jeffery, what am I missing?

Allen

Depending on the source, original 404 Jeffery ballistics had the 400gr bullet at 2125fps.

There is a fair amount of difference between the recoil of a 400gr bullet at 2100fps and 2300fps.

Many say that a 400gr bullet @2350 is equal to a factory 458 or 470.

Many people that have shot a 500/416 double and a 470 double side by side report that the recoil is similar.

If I hunted a 404, or any 40 calibre rifle I would stay with a 400gr bullet at @2200fps.
Which is what I have done with my 450/400 3 1/4" double.

It has worked plenty good on cape buff, lion and bull elephant.

Recoil is less than rifles in the 458/475 group and penetration with solids is maybe even a little more.

It seems that someone will always dig up some chick that shoots a 500 Jeffery from the hip and at full gallop from the saddle.

A 400 gr. bullet at 2150 fps is a lot of recoil. I wouldn't call that a chick gun.

A 404 Jeffery is not a 404 Jeffery anymore, as it can be suoped up to 2400 fps and higher.

THe last thing anyone wants to hear is facts, but the 458 WM, the 470, and the 404 (at 2400 fps) have essentially the same muzzle energy but the larger bullets have more momentum and hence a lot more recoil.

But then I believe that the Lott recoils no worse than my 30-06. Which is why I am surprised by the all the Lotts that are always for sale.

Now please don't tell Will, but my 404 Jeffery weighs 10 pounds with the scope. (He thinks it only weighs 7.5 and is just right for it's caliber!)

In my rifle trying to stay with historical velocities around 2150 you don't have any trouble knowing when you touch one off on the bench. Don't think that you are going to send 400 grains downrange at 2150-2400 FPS and not be kicked.

Felt recoil is purely a personal matter. It is different for each individual. I can promise you "Brisk" around 2250 and "Damn that hurt!" around 2400 in the 404 Jeffery.

What makes the 404 Jeffery a great rifle is that you don't have to load it up to brutal recoil level to get great penetration. All the "Sweet 400s", from .408-.423, do a great job of penetration. The 404 Jeffery has earned it's reputation by getting the job done at moderate historical velocites for over a 100 years.

You can get that velocity and recoil today with RL-15 and a Dacron or foam filler. Works for me.

quote:

A 400 gr. bullet at 2150 fps is a lot of recoil. I wouldn't call that a chick gun.
A 404 Jeffery is not a 404 Jeffery anymore, as it can be supped up to 2400 fps and higher.

Will is right! If you want that velocity get a 416 Remmy or a 416 Rgby.
Keep the 404 Jeffery a 404 Jeffery. Why mess with success?
Just my opine!

“But then I believe that the Lott recoils no worse than my 30-06. Which is why I am surprised by the all the Lotts that are always for sale.â€
Will,
Would you send me some of that medication you are taking/smoking. The only other explanation is you have a 4# 30-06 and a 16# lott.
AllenBosely,
Now back to reality, the main reason for the difference in reported recoil has been touched on by Rustey and N E 450 No2. The loads of the day were around 2150 and probley would chronograph some what less in a 22-24 in barrel and the rifle probley weighed in the 9.5-10.5 pound range. What has happened is we have been making rifles lighter to satisfy those who are not capable of carrying that terribly heavy rifle and have been loading the round hotter.
Bill

Check out www.Biggameinfo.com and you can plug in the requried data and determine the recoil for whatever. Good site for checking most any type of ballistic info needed for loads.

I have a 10+ # 404 and when I touch off a 400 gr anything with 83 gr of H4350 under it...good for just under 2300 fps....you flat know it. Does it hurt...no....is it greater than a 7.5# 30/06....yep...noticiby more.

Big bores kick....get familiar with it, or don't shoot one....not much choices in between.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I'm not concerned about the recoil. For what I will want to do 2200 to 2250 fps is going to be more than enough.

It's just in reading about the 404 I noticed two rather different levels of recoil being talked about, much more so then other cartridges.
And wondered if the velocity varied that much to account for the difference in descriptions of recoil or what accounted for the two rather different descriptions.

Allen

Allen:

Yes, there is a difference in my 404 at "historic" rates and where I load it....and I don't load it as high as it could go in a modern firearm.
I think it VERY much recoils like my 450/400 double which fires 400 gr bullets at 2050 fps out of 23.5" barrels....and the difference IS noticable with the 200 fps.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

Allen,
My 416 Taylor is comfortable with 400's up to around 2250fps. 2350-2400fps is not much fun for more than 8 shots. I do not kill anything more dangerous than water jugs and paper but I like to shoot three to four shot strings as fast as accurately possible. The 375 is very comfortable with any load for me.

If you are in Western MT come check out our Big Bore shoot in Hamilton on the 24th. They are fun. There is also a Big Bore shoot in Boulder on Sept. 6. You can check out guns a shoot a few to get the feel of different loads.

95 grs. of IMR-4831 will give you 2652 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet in a original 27" tube 404 Jefferys..

This load has been quoated in several guns magazines over the years and I had Northfork industries test it for pressure and velocity in there test rifle..NOrthfork had a 24 inch barrel and it got 2500 plus at safe pressure..after all the case is almost the equal of the 416 Rigby that can get 2700 plus...

I have hunted buffalo with that load many times and its a stomper at both ends and kills well indeed...That said I settled on 93 grs. for 2400 FPS as a good compromise to my shoulder and have been using that load for years....

The 2100 FPS of the old 404s is a thing of the past. With good modern powders like IMR-4831 and RL-15, then 2400 FPS is a snap and in that big case pressures are low indeed...Why then would one want to use a weaker load..I have used the weaker loads and they work but not like the faster loads do..The buff don't hump or grown.

I am presently building me another wonderfull 404 Jefferys, I can't stand being without one. It will have a 22 inch barrel as I can still reach 2400 with ease in that barrel length.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Now please don't tell Will, but my 404 Jeffery weighs 10 pounds with the scope. (He thinks it only weighs 7.5 and is just right for it's caliber!)

In my rifle trying to stay with historical velocities around 2150 you don't have any trouble knowing when you touch one off on the bench. Don't think that you are going to send 400 grains downrange at 2150-2400 FPS and not be kicked.

Felt recoil is purely a personal matter. It is different for each individual. I can promise you "Brisk" around 2250 and "Damn that hurt!" around 2400 in the 404 Jeffery.

What makes the 404 Jeffery a great rifle is that you don't have to load it up to brutal recoil level to get great penetration. All the "Sweet 400s", from .408-.423, do a great job of penetration. The 404 Jeffery has earned it's reputation by getting the job done at moderate historical velocites for over a 100 years.

You can get that velocity and recoil today with RL-15 and a Dacron or foam filler. Works for me.

quote:

A 400 gr. bullet at 2150 fps is a lot of recoil. I wouldn't call that a chick gun.
A 404 Jeffery is not a 404 Jeffery anymore, as it can be supped up to 2400 fps and higher.

Will is right! If you want that velocity get a 416 Remmy or a 416 Rgby.
Keep the 404 Jeffery a 404 Jeffery. Why mess with success?
Just my opine!

I agree with Rusty. I have both a .404 and a .416 Rigby. I started loading the .404 with Reloder 15 and was running it about 2260 fps with a 400 grain Woodleigh. However, I found my CZ .404 to be fairly heavy so I pulled the scope and rings off, put on a peep sight from NECG and switched it over to IMR4831 at about 2150 fps. If I want something faster, I just shoot the Rigby. The .404 is a really superb cartridge and there is really no need to "soup it up." The original ballistics of a 400 grain bullet at around 2150 fps worked great then and will work great now. In addition, at those velocity, bullet performance is great!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by AllenBosely:
I have noticed in descriptions of the 404 Jeffery's recoil two quite different descriptions.

One is how modest it is, one PH or outfitter was quoted as saying it was his favorite DG cartridge for ladies because of the recoil characteristics, comments about vintage 404s, but being fired now day,s as having soft recoil even with a steel but plate, it was a favorite caliber of game departments because of moderate recoil and so on.

Then, comments like, it recoils half again as much as a .375H&H, it is a good step up from the .375H&H, if you can handle the recoil, or above 2250 or 2300 fps
or some stated velocity, recoil becomes bothersome ect.

I thought that even the earlier loads got between 2250 to 2300 fps, they weren't real light loads then and now 2400 fps is the norm.

Some times I read the descriptions about the recoil and have to check if it was the 404 that is being talked about.

Is there that much difference in recoil because of velocity differences or what.

Of all cartridges, I have noticed this mostly in the 404 Jeffery, what am I missing?

Allen

There is no magic here it's just that most folks push for what they already own. You know, their choice is the best and they're not shy about telling you that!

So Dave,
Based on your thread, why not load your .416 Rigby at 2150 FPS as it was once loaded at that velocity and advertised as more!!

If one can load the .404 to 2400 FPS and it kills better then it makes little since to not do so...Same with the 416 Rigby.

Your posts seems to be based on perhaps misguided historic nostalgia...I am also nostalgic and that is why I use the .404, but I also know that Kynochs later loads were the loads that made the 404 famous and they were sizzleing along at 2300 FPS with 400 gr. bullets. This came about by request from folks that had failures with the original 404s. That is the load that made the 404 famous, contrary to popular belief.....

I have used the 404 at 2150, 2400 and at 2600 plus and I can tell you for sure that the 2300 to 2400 FPS range is the best place to be under all circumstances..Recoil can be handled by anyone that can shoot a 375 with 300 gr. bullets.....Pressures are low and its a well rounded cartridge capable of killing any animal on our planet..

Ray, I would not challenge the wisdom of someone with far more experience than I. Perhaps I was wrong about the historical loadings of these two fine cartridges. My recollection was that in hay day of African hunting, around the turn of the 20th century, the .404 was loaded to a very modest velocity of about 2125 fps and, in fact, that is the loading shown even today on the KYNOCH web site and that is out of a 28 inch barrel! The same site shows the .416 Rigby loaded to a modest 2300 fps out of a 26 inch barrel. I always thought Kynoch was the arbiter of all things Nitro Express.

You're probably right about the historic nostalgia part but nostalgia doesn't have to be "misguided" does it? What's wrong with trying to recreate the tools that the greatest hunters of the past used? Why not keep the .404 a .404? Heck, there are plenty of other more modern cartridges that are more powerful that a guy can pick if he/she wants too, right?

Dave

I run 380gr-400gr bulelts @ 2250fps in a 10.25# rifle. I find it managable off the bench, enough to shoot 21-30rds @ a whack. In the field, you hardly can tell the diff. between it & a 9# .375h&h w/ 300gr bullets.
While I have no doubt it kills better @ 2400fps, I am fine w/ the loads I use now. It's dumped everything w/ one shot including my first buff. This year will be buff #2 so we'll see how that goes.

I am having a 404 Jeffery built by AHR, Are there any inexpensive bullets for practice? Lead Cast?

Thanks,

Right now, Woodleigh 350gr on sale from time to time on Midway. Hawk bullets are ok for practice, but not that cheap. I don't like the clean up for lead but there are some makers of .423-.424.
I make cheap plinkers sizing 300grJHP or SP 44mag bullets to .423. I use a Lee bullets sizer in .427 then another in .423 usig Imperial Wax. They shoot pretty well @ 2200fps out to 100yds in my M70, under 2". 44mag bullets are pretty inexpensive.

quote:

Originally posted by tradewinds:
I am having a 404 Jeffery built by AHR, Are there any inexpensive bullets for practice? Lead Cast?

Thanks,

Tradewinds:

You have hit on the main problem with the .404. It is not cheap to shoot. You could probably find some lead bullets for it but there really are no cheap jacketed bullets available. In my .404, I shoot Woodleighs and they are getting more expensive all the time. Lately, if I want to go out and plinking or shoot some jugs with my buddy, I usually grab my .416 Rigby because I load it with plain old 400 grain Hornaday Intelock bullets that are a lot cheaper. You will run into the same problem with a .500 Jeffery as well.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by tradewinds:
I am having a 404 Jeffery built by AHR, Are there any inexpensive bullets for practice? Lead Cast?

Thanks,

Tradewinds:

You have hit on the main problem with the .404. It is not cheap to shoot. You could probably find some lead bullets for it but there really are no cheap jacketed bullets available. In my .404, I shoot Woodleighs and they are getting more expensive all the time. Lately, if I want to go out and plinking or shoot some jugs with my buddy, I usually grab my .416 Rigby because I load it with plain old 400 grain Hornaday Intelock bullets that are a lot cheaper. You will run into the same problem with a .500 Jeffery as well.

Dave

I shoot lead in my 470, and Hornady in 375/458 for practice. Maybe now that Hornady is going to load some ammo they will have some reasonable bullets? I am suprised there are not some easily located Lead bullets.

Tradewinds:

I live in Grand Island, NE, and I am acquainted with Steve Hornaday. I have always had it in the back of my mind that I would make an appointment and go out to talk to him personally about this very topic. If you shoot a .375, 416, or .458, no problem. Hornaday has interlocks available for those cartridges at a very reasonable price. But, it is hard to find "practice" bullets for your .404, .470, .505, .510 guns. I don't know about you but I shoot ten times as many Interlocks and Hot Cores as I do Swifts, Woodleighs, or Barnes. There is a real market here for less expensive bullets that a guy can use at the range.

Dave

Here tradewinds: https://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm
I keep reading Hornady is going to make a 400grIL for their 404J ammo. That would be a great practice/soft skinned game bullet. I look forward to it. Until then, I stil have 300 or so NFs & I'll shoot the Woodleigh & my 300gr plinkers for practice.

Fredj338. Are the Beartooth Lead?

yes they are.

Thanks I will try some. I saw Grafs shows the new Hornady DG bullets both soft and solid. Price says FREE. Wonder if they will honor that? They say they have the .375 in stock only a couple dollars more than the regular hornady.

Dave,
I don't disagree with you at all and I have used the original loadings to shoot buffalo in the 404 J...but what you suggest can apply to many cartridges and it boils down to choices I suppose..At any rate I was only makeing conversation and not in disagreement.

In my case, being a nostalgic, I prefer to use the old calibers but go with the latter loading at 2300 and up, even in the .375 H&H or 30-06 they made their debue at very low velocity but most folks load them way beyond that..

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Tradewinds:

I live in Grand Island, NE, and I am acquainted with Steve Hornaday. I have always had it in the back of my mind that I would make an appointment and go out to talk to him personally about this very topic. If you shoot a .375, 416, or .458, no problem. Hornaday has interlocks available for those cartridges at a very reasonable price. But, it is hard to find "practice" bullets for your .404, .470, .505, .510 guns. I don't know about you but I shoot ten times as many Interlocks and Hot Cores as I do Swifts, Woodleighs, or Barnes. There is a real market here for less expensive bullets that a guy can use at the range.

Dave

You're absolutely right. I've put at least a thousand .375 Interlocks and Interbonds down my Mod 70, and am considering the .404 for next year's hunt. Nothing out there available but A Frames and Woodleighs and TSX's. Expensive habit, 404's.

Even HAWK BULLETS start at $48 US for thier thin jacketed 400 grain bullets. Man talk about a pig grenade! Those soft hawks do stay together, but WOW, what a mushroom!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A 400 gr. bullet at 2150 fps is a lot of recoil. I wouldn't call that a chick gun.

A 404 with a 400 gr bullet at 2150 is a gentle push, and in NO WAY alot of recoil. .. is it more than a 30-06, of course it is.. is it more than a 375? yeah, sure, i'll go with that... it is ANYTHING like shooting even the 458 winmaG? Not eve CLOSE, and nothing like a lott or even full blown 416 remmag...


I have shot Rusty's DARN FINE 404, and it is a pleasure to shoot ..

Remember jeffeosso, everyone feels recoil diff. I wouldn't say a 400gr @ 2150 is a lot of recoil either, but it is also not a "gentle push". SOmewhere inbetween is the correct answer. I would call 400gr @ 2150fps, from a 9.5# rifle "managable" recoil.