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Originally posted by michael458:
Ever see a prairie dog explode from a high velocity 223 bullet? I am sorta having the same visions here, only it's bigger, much bigger!

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Originally posted by chuck375:
It seems like all the discussion on hunting elephant focuses on brain shots, if so, what advantage does a larger caliber like the 500 Jeffery have over a 375 H&H or Weatherby?

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Originally posted by chuck375:
This question is from a total noob on elephant hunting, never done it, not sure if I'll ever get the chance. I've got a 375 Weatherby and a 500 Jeffery (bought the Jeffery for cape buffalo, and the Weatherby for an alaskan brown bear hunt I'm going on in 3 weeks). So here's the question:

It seems like all the discussion on hunting elephant focuses on brain shots, if so, what advantage does a larger caliber like the 500 Jeffery have over a 375 H&H or Weatherby? It seems like from a SD and velocity perspective if the bullet design/construction is the same, a 350g solid from the 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby should penetrate further than a 570g or 600g solid from a 500 NE or 500 Jeffery and thus be better on brain shots?

Thanks in advance,

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Originally posted by 465H&H:
You all need to realize that Michael is like a proud father to his CEB bullets and like any father their kids can do no wrong.

465H&H

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Originally posted by 500N:
God, if Michael is like this and it's all over the giving birth of his bullets, can you imagine what he's going to be like when one fails in the field

Their won't be enough tissues in the world.

.

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Originally posted by chuck375:
It seems like from a SD and velocity perspective if the bullet design/construction is the same, a 350g solid from the 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby should penetrate further than a 570g or 600g solid from a 500 NE or 500 Jeffery and thus be better on brain shots?

Thanks in advance,

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
This question is from a total noob on elephant hunting, never done it, not sure if I'll ever get the chance. I've got a 375 Weatherby and a 500 Jeffery (bought the Jeffery for cape buffalo, and the Weatherby for an alaskan brown bear hunt I'm going on in 3 weeks). So here's the question:

It seems like all the discussion on hunting elephant focuses on brain shots, if so, what advantage does a larger caliber like the 500 Jeffery have over a 375 H&H or Weatherby? It seems like from a SD and velocity perspective if the bullet design/construction is the same, a 350g solid from the 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby should penetrate further than a 570g or 600g solid from a 500 NE or 500 Jeffery and thus be better on brain shots?

Thanks in advance,

Data has shown that the larger the caliber and the heavier the bullet, the more likely it is to stop an elephant charge by either turning it or knocking it down. There is so much data showing this fact is true that if anything is a law in hunting, this is it.

465H&H

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On another note, I don't get too excited about Michael's sense of humour. He and I usually agree on most aspects of the subject of this thread. We go back and forth over a couple of issues where we disagree or at least look at things slightly differently.

quote:

Originally posted by Sid-:
I like how michael458 thinks. He also seems to be very knowlegeable on the subject of bullet performance. I see on these forums all the time where people say they like nostalga rounds and don't care for modern cartridges because the old ones work just fine. If anyone has gone through the legwork for me and found a superior bullet then I thank them for saving me money and time narrowing the field down.

I also like hot rods and see guys who only build Model T's and vintage muscle cars. These are great cars but pale in comparison to modern autos. I would rather have a new Corvette to drive than one from the sixties just as I would prefer a modern bullet to one designed in the sixties.

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Originally posted by 465H&H:
You all need to realize that Michael is like a proud father to his CEB bullets and like any father their kids can do no wrong. 465H&H

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Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
This question is from a total noob on elephant hunting, never done it, not sure if I'll ever get the chance. I've got a 375 Weatherby and a 500 Jeffery (bought the Jeffery for cape buffalo, and the Weatherby for an alaskan brown bear hunt I'm going on in 3 weeks). So here's the question:

It seems like all the discussion on hunting elephant focuses on brain shots, if so, what advantage does a larger caliber like the 500 Jeffery have over a 375 H&H or Weatherby? It seems like from a SD and velocity perspective if the bullet design/construction is the same, a 350g solid from the 375 H&H or 375 Weatherby should penetrate further than a 570g or 600g solid from a 500 NE or 500 Jeffery and thus be better on brain shots?

Thanks in advance,

Data has shown that the larger the caliber and the heavier the bullet, the more likely it is to stop an elephant charge by either turning it or knocking it down. There is so much data showing this fact is true that if anything is a law in hunting, this is it.

465H&H

quote:

On another note, I don't get too excited about Michael's sense of humour. He and I usually agree on most aspects of the subject of this thread. We go back and forth over a couple of issues where we disagree or at least look at things slightly differently.

465HH--and here is one of those points in which we for sure agree upon, no doubt. Bigger hits harder and it is the LAW as you say.

One point for you to ponder, and we don't probably agree upon, but none the less. With the FN solids, they hit harder up front zero doubt, I have seen the differences between the FN hitting both buffalo and elephant, a very noticeable reaction, and taking it with the round nose which has little effect, in particular on body shots. Head shots are different, as some bone is involved, transmitting trauma I believe. If using a round nose fmj or solid then I agree with 465HH 100%, within caliber you have to increase weight to increase effectiveness. Example, from a 500 RN to a 550 RN that 465HH likes so good. I concur. However, when you change the nose profile to a Flat Nose, dynamics change quite a bit.

You need not go heavy for caliber with a flat nose profile. You can remain the same weight or even quite a bit less weight and get far better hit'em hard where it counts results, and you can readily see the effects upon the animal taking the bullet. To start with, easy logic, you have more surface area on the flat nose, hopefully a 65% or better meplat up front that transmits more trauma to target. Something else that really begins to show up is the added velocity. Now I have never been a velocity nut, but there is no denying that the proper designed flat nose solids react well with velocity, to a point. That point is for the most part beyond what most common cartridges can achieve. For my part I would much rather have a flat nose solid hitting harder up front than that of a heavier round nose solid, even at the same velocity, I believe the flat nose will transmit more trauma. Since the lighter flat nose can be driven faster than the heavier round nose, then effectiveness will increase.

I am not one to believe only in brain shots on elephant. I will take the shot presented at the moment of truth. I have not shot many elephant, only 7, and of those only two were brain shots, one side, one frontal, side with a round nose old barnes, frontal with a SSK .500 Flat Nose--both successful, both stone cold dead at the first shot. My flat nose solid from the front exited the head, lost in the body. My round nose barnes from the side did not exit. Both dead however. I have shot many rounds of round nose solid into live elephant bodies, little noticeable effect, every flat nose solid shot into the bodies of elephants had a tremendous effect. Same exact story with buffalo.

Thus in my experiences both in the field and on the range with the test work, there is a big difference in the hitting ability between the two designs.

If elephant is in my future, I think I will take the big flat nose solid and rely upon it's hitting ability to assist with transfer of trauma, instead of increasing weight, I might increase velocity as there is no detriment in a flat nose to increased velocity, only benefit.

Michael

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In my mind a solid bullet can fail in two ways. One is the traditional definition, bending or deformation causes the bullet to veer away from the vitals, not penetrate far enough to reach the vitals etc. The second is if the bullet restricts you from taking a shot at the target animal because you may wound or kill a non-target animal behind the one you want to take.

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Also, once it leaves the animal, their is no guarantee it will go in a straight line

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Originally posted by michael458:
465 HH

Yes, you have a very valid point indeed concerning pass throughs.

Question is, what can you rely upon 100% of the time to not pass through broadside buffalo?

Sure, we can pick an expanding bullet of inferior design, or SD, or any number of details to limit it's penetration so it does not pass through, and then we do not have to wait for the animal standing behind correct? Wrong, then you just change the option of what you are "Waiting" for, now you have to wait for the "Perfect Broadside" shot, as you have limited your penetration, an angled shot might not do?

Regardless of animal, bullet, rifle or cartridge, I find on every hunt I go on I am waiting for the animal or target to be clear. I do not trust any bullet I would use to not go through, and then if I had a bullet that I trust WOULD NOT pass through, then I would not trust it to do the job if I asked more of it!

quote:

In my mind a solid bullet can fail in two ways. One is the traditional definition, bending or deformation causes the bullet to veer away from the vitals, not penetrate far enough to reach the vitals etc. The second is if the bullet restricts you from taking a shot at the target animal because you may wound or kill a non-target animal behind the one you want to take.

OK, lets see if I got this right. It fails if it does not penetrate enough to get to the vitals, and it also fails if we get too much penetration and it passes through? Damn H, you a hard man to please! I don't think even I can pull that one off for you!

I agree that pass throughs are a concern. We are on the same page. However, we go off page when one is willing to sacrifice performance on the one issue of pass throughs. I wait for target to clear and do not take a chance even with softs. But I do use good bullets. Penetration is the key to success, I stand on that.


500N

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Also, once it leaves the animal, their is no guarantee it will go in a straight line

I reckon if one is going to reach, might as well reach for the stars! LOL.........

Too Good! I tell you, life just would not be the same without my two buddies, 465HH and 500N. Ya'll know I appreciate you both, and I have to poke a little fun once and awhile eh?! That was a good one, loved it! Sorta like throwing a curve ball at me! HEH HEH

Now really boys, we should not hi jack this thread anymore, shame on us!


Get us back on track, Great Big Ultra Bores, .585 and up, benefit greatly today from some of the new bullet designs--Can we all agree on that?
I think so.

Thank you all

Michael

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Originally posted by hubel458:
Interesting what a 700 cal, 1050 gr version of
Michael's good turned FN solids would do in my 700
at about 3 grand in ele/rhino/etc... Ed

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what happens most of the time when you make a perfect shot(i'm mostly thinking of headshots) on an elephant with a 700 NE or a 4 bore? i have a 4 bore cartridge and it hard to imagine a 4 bore not being able to penetrate an elephant's skull.