This is in respons to questions from NitroX and JBoutfishin. I have two nonscoped British Doubles and a 9.3X74R Chapuis double with a Leupold 2.5X8 with a heavy duplex in Chapuis [ made by Ernst Apel {SP?} I think] QD Pivot Mounts. I have been using these doubles for 99&44/100 of my hunting for about 5 years. While scoping a double may seem strange at first, the scope gives you the same advantage on a double as it does on any rifle, it enables you to see and aim better. With QD mounts you can take it off when in close quarters or bad weather, The best of both worlds. I have done only a limited amount of shooting at 200 yards with the scope on the 9.3. The 2 loads I shot at 200 yards, same powder charge different bullets, shot 4 round groups, 2 right, 2 left, fired 1r,1l,1r,1l, that could be covered by the palm of my hand, @ 4" wide by 3" tall. These were shot while standing, off the roof of a car using an article of clothing under my left hand. Not bench rest by any means but close to actual hunting positions. I was suprised the rifle shot so good at 200 yards. In both cases the right bbl hit perfect left and right, one load the left bbl hit to the left, in the other the left bbl hit to the right. I have shot my iron sighted doubles at my "200 yard rock" but not on paper...yet. I will try my 450 No2 on paper at 200 soon. Double rifles with good loads may shoot better than we think they should. You will just have to test your rifle and see. Based on the double rifles I have shot I do not think hunting accuracy will be a problem. I really like this 9.3 Double, I have had 3 375 H&H rifles, still have 2, but I cannot think of a situation where I would prefer them to the 9.3 double. When I elk hunt this year it will be with the 9.3. The 9.3 will be my Plains game, Leopard, and Lion rifle for 2004. I will use the 450 No2 for the BIG stuff.
JBoutfishing the Chapuis 9.3 double weighs 7 1/4 lbs [without scope, havent weighed it with scope]. It handles like a FINE .410 shotgun, much, much better than any bolt rifle. I highly recommend it.
NitroX....However If I was only going to take one rifle I would want something bigger. I have a 450/400 3 1/4" Nitro Express Magnum. With it I have taken deer, several pigs, 2 Caribou, and a Black Bear [spot and stalk not bait, I would use the scoped 9.3 for Bear over bait]. The 400 weighs 9 1/4 lbs. I have carried it on true back pack hunts. I think a 40cal double rifle would be the best all round big bore rifle there is...if it is scoped! There are just some situations where a scope is worth its weight in gold. It would be a tar and feather crime to scope an original British double, but some day I may have to do it to mine. More to follow.

NitroX to answer your questions about the regulation issue with different weight bullets.
I may have "rediscovered" something about using different weight bullets in doubles. I call it the 75 per-cent rule. It seems to work this way.
After you have found a full power, standard weight bullet load for your double, you pick a bullet as close to 75% in weight to it as you can find. Load it up over the exact same powder charge as the full power load and give it a try. You might have to tweek it a little, I have not.
This does not seem to be a fluke, as demonstrated by the below loads.
450 No2. When I forst got this rifle the recommended load was 480 Woodleigh's and 81 grains of IMR 3031 and 5gr. poly. 480 times 75% = 360 grains. The Hornady 350gr bullet shoots to the sights and regulates perfectly, shooting even better than the 480's.
Then I read where 3031 blows up doubles so I tried IMR 4831. 100 gr. shot the best with the 480,s. Sure enough the 350's were right on. NOW I read where 4831 blows up doubles, RL-15 is the new Miracle powder. SO.... 89gr. of RL-15 shoots the best with 480 Woodleigh's, this may be the best load with the 480,s so far. Sure enough 89gr of RL-15 puts the 350's "right where the sights be looking". [at 50 yards 4 shots kneeling no other support, group covered by the palm of my hand. I have tried 300gr and 400gr bullets with these same loads and they do not group or regulate with the 480gr/350gr.
The 450/400 3 1/4. 81gr of IMR 4831 [no filler]and 83gr of IMR 4831 both shoot good in this rifle with 400gr. Woodleigh's. I use 81gr. as my standard load. 81gr. shoots good with 400gr. Barns X bullets also. [This rifle shoots .408 diameter bullets]. SO...400 times 75% equals 300.
Hawk makes .408 diameter 300gr. bullets, I want to shoot whitetail deer and pigs so I order 300gr Hawks with the .025 jacket so I will get good expansion, and "knockdown" on behind the shoulder shots [don't want to mess up the shoulder roast on them pigs]. The 300gr. Hawks shoot right with the sights, and regulate with smaller groups than the 400gr. Then I try some 300gr .408 Barns X bullets [before I know better] and they shoot just as good as the Hawks.
I do not think this is a fluke. A Westley Richards Catalogue I have shows 450/400 loads with 400 and 300gr bullets. And their 476 bore rifle was loaded with 520gr bullets. Lets see 520 Times 75% equals 390 gr. Westley Richards loaded a 385gr. roundnose for lighter game.!!!
As near as I can tell shooting at rocks these@ 75 % lighter bullets shoot with the regular bullet loads all the way to 200 yards. I am going to try the 450 No2 on paper soon.
I would think that the 500/416 would behave in the same way, even if you have to tweek the load a grain or to. Now lets assume your 500/416 will just not group the right and left bbl close enough together at 200 yards to be useful on smaller plains animals, or even on any animal. I would use this method. I would sight in the scope for the left bbl at 200 yards and use the double as a single shot when shooting animals at a distance. I did not think this up either. on the left bbl of my 400 it is marked "THIS BARREL IS ACCURATE WITH THE SIGHTS TO 400 YARDS" [ this rifle has a 50 yard standing sight and folding leaves for 100,200,300,and 400 yds]. On the right barrel it is marked "THIS BARREL IS ACCURATE WITH THE LEFT TO 50 YARDS". I have seen this on 2 different doubles, both by the same maker.
For me the many advantages of the double rifle far out weigh any slight disadvantage if it would be necessary to use it as a single shot when shooting at a distance which may be an unnecessary worry. After using double rifles for about 5 years there is NEVER a time I would choose a bolt rifle over a double in any calibre over 375. I see a scoped 40 cal. double as the BEST rifle for a one rifle safari that includes some combination of Buff, Lion, Hippo or Elephant. A 300gr..025jkt Hawk bullet would be great for a Leopard out of a scoped double.
If your double will not shoot lighter bullets in the same group as the standard weight, all is not lost. Just work up loads with bullets of the same weight, but different construction, In the 500/416 400gr Woodleigh solids, 400gr Woodleigh softs for big animals,400 Hawk's with .025jkt for animals under 400 lbs. [one advantage is there are lots of bullets in 416 diameter]. In fact since I do not want to get tar and feathered, when I get to old to carry the 450 No2 [11+ lbs] I may have J.J. make me a set of 500/416 scoped barrels. [I can't help it I like British double rifles] and keep the original bbls original.
I feel I must add that I hate to go anywhere with just one rifle.

i have been thinking of getting a 9.3x74 to complement my merkel 470 ,it would have to have a scope on it as my eyesight is not real good now at what range is a double 9.3x74 double good on plains game what projectile is best all round for this game and deer etc i want to use one load only ,can i get another set of barrels from merkel or do they expect me to buy a whole new weapon ,has anyone any thoughts?

A nice read NE 450. I'll have to try it with my 450/400 3inch.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Gentelmen, the above exchange is the reason so many poeple come on to AR, and stay! The combined expertise on this website is a litterel encyclopedia of gun, and hunting information. If you can't find the answer on Accurate reloading, it doesn't exist! GOOD SHOW gentelmen!

N E 450 No2

no harm this time. Personally I think that mounting a scope on a double is like mounting a trailer hook on a Ferrari or something simular, it just doesn't fit

Double rifles are supposed to point and handle like shot guns.

A friend of mine had some sight problems and were bitching about mounting a scope on his double. He wore glasses and didn't liked useing it on Safari's. He ended up with a laser operation of his eye's instead of mounting a scope

Cheers
/ JOHAN

NE 450 No 2

Thank you very much for your detailed and informative reply. I have certainly taken notes on what you have said for trying out.

That is a very interesting theory about the "75% rule". If that rule can be applied generally to doubles, what a great idea! Definitely something to try.

I do not own a .500/.416 at present but your post awaked some intense interest in obtaining one. If a scoped 416 double can be used accurately with lighter longer range loads it sounds like a possible plains game proposition. And a reliable takedown to boot.

I wonder how many doubles have been setup with a left barrel such as yours? It does make a lot of sense to have one barrel true to the sights aiming line with the other barrel crossing it rather than the sights aimed at both barrels regulated crossing point only.

Thanks again for taking your time to answer my query with such a detailed reply.

(450 No 2 - Have sent you a PM)

[ 02-21-2003, 05:59: Message edited by: NitroX ]

JOHAN Your thoughts on double rifles with scopes was the same as mine...until I tried a scope on my 9.3.After using it I think a scope in QD mounts would be a worthwhile addition to any double, up to the 450/470 class at least.
The double rifle had faded form the hunting scene before the "scope revolution" took place. Had the manufacturing and use of double rifles continued I have no doubt that all of them would be made "drilled and tapped" for scope mounts. In fact I would bet some double rifles would be offered with NO iron sights at all!!! It is hard today to find a bolt rifle with any iron sights at all, much less decent ones. Once you try a scope on a double rifle you realize it offers the same advantages [and disadvantages, thus the need for QD] as it does on any rifle.

Nitro X and others on AR. I hope some of you will try this "75% RULE" and let us know how it works in your doubles. It also worked on a Chapuis 470 I helped a guy with. He used 350 Hawk bullets. You could shoot two 350's and two 500gr. and the would all be in the same group. Now that double rifles are seeing increased use with the "modern man", who knows what new stuff we will discover. In the first Era of the double rifle nobody reloaded, in this second Era "modern man" may redefine the capabilities of the Double rifle.

NitroX you have a PM

He who would scope a double rifle has pedifilic tendencys...

I don't know what Ray just said but here is one.

9.3x74R w/1 1/2 x 6 Ziess in claw mounts. Weighs 8 lbs w/ scope. 6 1/2 without. Notice no recoil pad, only people with Pedifilic Tendencys use recoil pads.

Wait one Mickey, is that the same rifle in both pics? If so you just told on yourself,I spy a slip on leather pad

Dave

A That's only to protect the checkered buttplate.
B Hardly any padding at all.
C The stock is too short when I wear a t- shirt
D I only put it on to protect the stock from rocks on the ground for the picture.

All of the above

Mickey Nice looking rifle, and Kudu. Tell us about the rifle and about the bullet used, I know the box says Woodleigh, and the Kudu hunt.

Ray, actually we might be ferrumgesiht with latent tendencies toward scopiumphilia. Which is why we want QD mounts.

450

It was made by the Head gunmaker at Francotte as his personal rifle in 1935. It was restocked by a friend in Belgium when I bought it as it originally had a 12 1/2" length of pull. New scope also.

I have had it for 12 years and have shot dozens of animals in with it. Smallest was a Klipspringer and largest a Water Buffalo in Aus. Farthest was a Gemsbok at 276 yards. I use it whenever the weather permits.

I use a 286 grain Woodleigh and a 286 grain Tug.

kos Buy a "whole" 9.3X74R double and make sure it has QD scope mounts. Since you live in Australia I would use 286 Woodleigh soft points, and have some 286 Woodleigh solids in case you stumble across one of them big Aussie Bovines.
The 286 Nosler Partition is a good bullet also.

Very Nice Mickey1! Both the rifle and the Kudu!

Carcano91 You are correct. I should have said "hard to find decent iron sights on rifles made for the American market". Ya'll Europeans are way ahead of us in that respect.... But then ya'll also PUT SCOPES ON DOUBLE RIFLES, and use them to shoot running game. We Americans could take a lesson here.... lets see....hunting running game [driven], shots will be fast, in timber, possibly in bad weather, or low light, and the rifle of choice is a scoped double. Sounds like the right choice to me.

carcano91

HOW DARE YOU. Some how I think you are almost right, not always but sometimes

I have to say that claw mouts are very reliable and makes it easy to shift scope. They look very good too. But as we both know a claw mount installed by a gunsmith that has the mechanical skills as the average baboon it will de a complete failure and very costly

N E 450 No2, you old nitwit. What type of mount do you use on your double rifle? We are aware that you are an Americano, tell us and don't be shy

/ JOHAN

JOHAN The mounts on my Chapuis are the ones supplied by the factory. They are the EAW detachable pivot mount. They go back to zero. I am very familar with German claw mounts. They are on my wifes Drilling and on my Steyr Mannlicher [half rings soldered to the scope]. I have also used the EAW quick-lock style rings.
The neat thing about the Chapuis rifles is that the rib is "cut" for scope rings from the factory. You can get the pivot style or German claw style, just undo 4 screws, lift out the 2 rib sections, and screw down the mount bases. When you shoulder the rifle without the scope on the rifle you do not see the scope bases. Very well designed system.

N E 450 No2

It seems like you have quite a sofisticated collection of firearms for beeing an americano

What type of mannlicher is it you have an old butter knife with a splitt rear brigde or a modern? The old ones can be very nice and the actions are an amazing piece of work. I like the old rotating steel magazine. I saw one complete with scope and claw mount in 8X64s for 800$ in a Swedish gunstore. I might need it soon
/ JOHAN

JOHAN My Steyr is the full stock model L. It has the "plastic" rotary magazine. It is a 308WCF with a Pecar 6x42, half rings soldered to the scope tube, in claw mounts. The Pecar scope was re-built several years ago. Hans Bender of Schmidt und Bender was here for the Shot Show. He took the scope back to Germany, gave it to Pecar. They rebuilt it and sent it back to me at no charge, with a letter thanking me for using their product!
I grew up looking at the Steyr split bridge rifles in the gun digest, I always wanted one in 358 WCF.

NE 45#2,
I read your post above and yep, thats what I'm thinking...

NE 450 NO2 . thanks for your reply and advice ,thats what this site should be about there is nothing wrong with light double with a scope ,whats wrong with these people , is it ego overload? thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!1

The "75% rule" was an "80% rule" for me.

The 400 grain Hornady HP (.475 cal. handgun bullet) shot to the POI for my .470 NE Merkel SXS. The load was the same 92.0 grains of RL-15 as used with the 500 grain load, in Norma brass, with a half inch thick foam wad, and an F-215 primer.

Velocity with the 80% weight (400 grain) bullet was about 100 fps faster than the 500 grain bullet with the same charge.

However, the composite group size more than doubled, from 1.6" (500 grainers) to about 4" (400 grainers) at 50 yards for 4 shots, IIRC, though still centered on the POI.

I would never scope a double rifle ... unless it was an O/U, single trigger, belted-cartridge-chambering curio ... but then it is all wrong anyway, so it is just a toy, and a scope on that kind of double would be just fine.

DaggaRon No wonder you got bigger groups...YOU ARE 5% OFF. Have you shot any game with the 400gr. bullets?
Seriously you might try some 350 Hawks, they shot to POA and group just as small as the 500gr. Woodleigh's.
I have tried 300gr. and 400gr. bullets in my 450 No2, they do OK at 25 yards but shoot wider groups at 50 and 100 yds. The 350 Hornady's shoot as good or even better than the 480 Woodleigh's.

For those of us who no longer have the 'Eyes of the Eagle', scopes are a valid option for shots over 100 yards. If you are happy shooting at less than that, or your double is too inaccurate to shoot at loger distances than keep the open sights.

Claw mounts installed when the rifle was built or installed by a competent rifle maker do not interefere with the open sights but add an option.





Unless you are luckier than I, they won't shoot the same. My 9.3 shoots 2.5 @100 meters with the scope (I had it regulated with scope) and about 5 " and low without.

[ 02-23-2003, 09:38: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]

Mickey1 Nice double, what other game have you taken with it?
I still do not under stand why someone would use a scope on a bolt action, or a single shot, and consider it a freak of nature to use a scope on a double rifle.

450#2
I have shot a Klipspringer, Springbok, Impala, Warthogs, multiple Red Hartebeast, Kudu, Gemsbok, Hartmans and Burchells Zebras. Eland, a couple of Bushpigs, an Nyala. Sika Deer, Red Deer, some Water Buff, some Range Bulls, goats, pigs, Roos and 5 Blacktails. Probably forgot something.

It can get pretty nasty here and in BC so I don't use it much around home.

I see you shot some Turkeys with your 450#2 how did that work? I'm taking my 10 Bore Paradox Turkey hunting in April.

Mickey1 I have not shot a turkey with the 450 No2
yet...I will probably try to get one with it this spring season, solids of course. I have taken several turkeys with the 9.3 Chapuis, most with iron sights, a few with the scope.
What loads did you use on the big stuff, buff, range bulls, eland and zebra. can you give us the details on bullet performance?

450#2

I wrote about my ill fated experiment with Barnes X's on Zebras awhile ago so no need to go there again. Also about my problems with Norma Brass.

I am sold on Woodleighs and TUGS. I am not much of an experimenter with loads. When I get one that works I quit. Woodleighs and TUGS have never failed me nor let me down and both were designed especially for the 9.3 x 74R. 52 grains of 3031 for 2325 with the Woodleighs and 51 with the TUGS. I use this load for everything and at that velocity have no problems with the bullets opening up, penitrating or staying together. Dead on at 150 and flat to 225. (+/-3"}

The TUGS are my favorite because of the way the front mushrooms and the back end carries on through. Full penitration with the rear end of the bullet is not unusual and the front opens up and does a lot of damage on soft tissue. I tried some of the TIGS once and was not that impressed with the penitration of the rear part of the bullet. If you have never shot either it is a bit hard to understand how they work but I like them when I can get them.

Never tried solids.