Here is the link to a very interesting article on what REALLY is the cause of death. Found it on Beartooth in the Ballistics thread.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...istics/wounding.html

Sure to stir the pot a bit but does point out some very good questions, some answers admittedly biased and and goes hand in hand with Michaels Terminal Bullet Performance.

The auther points out some the problems of coming up with a "killing" formula that really fits.

The problems with trying to put a definitive formula on what it takes to kill an animal is dealing with the multiple aspects of fluid dymanics, solids, tenacity of life - which has NO strictly definable parameters and so forth...sorta like the butterfly and the hurricane chaos theory...HOW to prove it.

It definitely DOES blow a lot of smoke and get into difficult to prove and highly argumentative areas of Physical(physics) Mechanics, but I will let YOU decide/receive what the information is presenting.

Think about it...

Luck

I have this posted on the Therm Perf site, but I believe it applies here also. I was comparing the performance of a 223 and a 50 if both had achieved equal penetration.

"Been thinking about the difference in what a 50 accomplishes and what a 223 accomplishes. If we get good penetration out of the 223 then the biggest differences are?
The size of the wound channel and resulting bleeding when using a NonCon.
The size of the wound channel and resulting bleeding when using a #13 soild
The damage done to any organ.
Other?

The answers are different whether a NonCon or a #13 solid but the questions are the same:
Will the lungs colapse from a 223 hit?
Will the brain stop functioning from a 223 hit? Will the heart be able to keep functioning after a 223 hit?
Will the 223 be able to break a shoulder?
Will the 223 be able to snap the nerve in the neck or back bone?
Other?

If not, where is the lower end on caliber for adequate performance on DG using a NonCon or #13 solid?

Didn't a famous Ivory hunter use a 275?

Given NonCons and the #13 solid do we give the green light to ???? as a DG caliber

22LR. One planet. One cartridge.

The primary fault in all of these theories,

Yes Will, including Taylor's

Is that animals cant read-otherwise they would know how dead they are.

SSR

See how arguments keep coming back to "the chicken and the egg" question...always needing some arbitrary "point" for some arbitrary requirement.

Hardly ever relates to real life except in the mind of someone in charge.

Why does "it" always need to be simplistically "one or the other" when it is actually ALL the different factors that play a part in wounding/killing.

Again...a "neverending story/argument".

Luck

Killing big game animals is no different than haveing a beer on a hot Sunday afternoon, you punch a big hole in the SOB, and let all the juice out, and you have a dead soldier, end of story, excep with the beer you end up with a

I agree with Ray. Plus the bigger the hole the faster the juices come out!!

Has anyone ever killed something too dead?

Yes I've killed em beyond dead. Deader than dead infact! That's how the term "overkill" was invented. -Rob

I will vouch for Rob, he done went and done it and I sold him the gun to do it with, It was my one and only wildcat, a 20MM necked down to a Phonograph needle...for those of you that don't know what a phongraph needle is please refrain from comments, your too young and I'm too tired to explain as I'm worn out trying to explain why I shoot a 300 H&H to JWP in another post.

All kidding aside, animals and humans are normally killed by stroke caused by stopping the blood supply to the brain, in some cases that is bleeding to death and in others its a surge of blood to the brain that overloads it. An example of the over load is if a Buffalo for instance is charging and the bullet hits the heart at the instant the bulls front feet hit the ground you will get an instant kill, otherwise he may live long enough to toss you over the nearest tree. I have had this explained to me in detail by a vet and by a couple of surgeons that have hunted with me..I suppose its more detailed than that but that is the basic reason animals die of gunshot wounds and I'm perfectly satisfied with that explanation.