I understand how energy transfer is extremely important. Have you compared the results of a watermelon hit with 454 Casull vs. 50 calBMG? You can see on my web site by tommorow, haven't got everything together, but go to http://www.gvec.net/skoshikin/big_bangs, there are many 454 watermelon hits there now, very impressive/very pretty, the colors are really nice. The 50 cal, the couple of shots I have, I just got holes.
BUT, it is my understanding that shockwave due to velocity is important, am I missing somemething? The velocity of the 50 cal is definitely higher,it is shjort range. You can shove a 1 inch dowell through someone but ain't gonna be the same as a 1 inch projectile at 3000 ft/s.

I am new to this forum, I hope I am not sounding too ignorant(I ain't stupid,, ignorant, that is another story I have been assuming the blunt bullet of the Casull is why the melon explodes with the 454 but not with the AR-armor piercing 50 cal. When hit with a 45 Colt or 45 ACP, ya just get holes.

Plus, on web site, see Yugo being dismantled, some of holes in back went through the engine. Sorry, I am not a hunter, though not against, most critters in the wild die by getting eaten alive, personally, I'd rather have the bullet. How come nobody makes this argument? It is so obvious.
rob

Thanks for listening
Rob

Rob,

I think on fluids, flesh, melons etc. velocity in itself is irrelevant, it only assists expansion and thus energy tranfer.

I have shot countless kangaroos with just about everything from 218 Bee to 460 Wby.

A 458 loaded up with 300 Hornady flat nose hollow points will make a 270 with 100 grainer or a 257 Wby with light bullets look very poor.

On a smaller scale you see similar witha 308 with 130 Speer Hollow points at about 2980 and the 22/250 when both are used on hares or very small female kangaroos. The 308 is a real blaster with that bullet, but so is the 458 with 300 grainers

Mike

Hi Mike, you must be upside down

I don't quite follow argument, but I am confused greatly on what determines the 'explosive' nature of the round. I also use a 10 ga, with 3/4 inch ball bearings, it HURTS-and I love it. Those things will put a 3-4 mm deep dent in half inch steel plate, and will not suffer any damage, I mean ya can't even feel any roughness! Go figure.

Thanks for reply, but, you could send me a few roos instead of shooting them, they ain't to prevalent round these parts, cental Texas, they be cool critters
I'll send ya some jack rabits Sorry, I know bout!
rob

Rob,

I think what we call hares are your jack rabbits.

Steel is a different deal.

But a very soft bullet with flat nose and hollow point will have much quicker energy transfer thah very high velocity harder and more pointy bullet.

Go shoot some jack rabbits with 300 Hollow points in the 458.

Mike

Hey Mike,Wanted to clarify
I am not very good at making sure my replies sorta are informative enough, ya kinda have assumptions in the ol, very 'ol, grey matter about how what you are thinking is in the other persons head.

The 10, with the 3/4 inch ball bearing does a nice explosion of the watermelons, I have no idea what velocity those suckers are going at, the balls are right at an once. I use middle pinky knuckle to load brass shells for the 100+ year old hammer 10 ga side-by -side, it is about 150 grains black powder load. I shot from sqwatting position once, course, knocked me on my ass.

Anyway, thanks for your reply, send me a tasmaniam devil too if ya ever go there
rob

Mike..!

What effect do you think I get on moose if I load some 300 grainers at 3100 f/s + in my .460 Wby

It should be good and worth trying.

However, a Toyota Landcruiser will win everyday in stopping power.

But even given the Landcruiser stopping power, the roos and emus will go under the vehichle and pop back up out the back of the vehichle.

Maybe at the end of the day, the 458 with 400 grain Speers is the best combination of caliber and vehichle.

Mike

[ 07-10-2002, 15:35: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Why do the three men from the west want to kill John Barley Corn, sorry, been listening to old Traffic CD.

I think my V10 Ram would outdo the Landcruiser, but do those roos and emus really manage to to avoid death from being run over? That I would love to see. I strattled a stupid dog that way once, just rolled the thing, it was it's 4th or 5th encounter with a vehicle, sucker is still around. How did this thread get to this?

But, can anyone give me physical explanation about what determines whether something going to explode or just get hole punched? Just curious, ain't exactly important I thought velocity did it, you can do a lot of damage with miniscule projectile if you hurl it at a few miles a second velocity(meteor, or rail gun), or a semi at 1/4 mile an hour. Just kinda want to get idea of how to predict.
rob

I am guessing on the 50 that you are using full jacket or heavy jacket bullets no expansion and no pushing of melon material in front of the bullet. As a bullet double in size it squares in surface area. Also I would think that the pistol bullet would begin to fragment and have some multible wound trails. I have also read of a guy that thought that speed would do the work and turned steel needle sharp bullets. It is reported that rabbits shot with this would set there with no aperent effect. For a bullet to have real enery transfer at some piont it must change shape. That is why a solid is used on heavey game. So it will not trasfer its energy on the serface but do so more slowly thus going deeper. On the other hand they are made blunt for hunting reasons to get the animals immediant attention like dead. Penitration with out shock is worthless as is shock with out penitration

Hi oddballshooter
Great handle, maybe you like a little havoc yourself?
After much research, and info from this site, I think I done gleaned some understanding of what be going on, most of what you said is just that. BUT, I did get explosion of the melons with the ball bearings out of the 10 ga(please, no posts about that, been there, done that), and they don't deform, hell, after impact with 1/2 inch steel plate, you can't even feel any ROUGHNESS much less deformation. It gotta be speed and caliber, ain't nothin else left in the variables near as I can tell. That ain't quite right, I know deformation plays a part, it's in the sinking of the energy over time through the entire impact event. You don't have to get deformation to get energy transfer, stand in front of bull dozer-cat, your heirs will figure out

Motherf-er, just been watching Springsteen with Coppel, whatever his Nightline offshoot is, Bruce be an awful lot like me in looks, demeaner, movement, way of talking(not accent, I be from texas)etc, cept the bit about staying away from the chemicals, and I ain't got the piercings, I'd rather have the chemicals, kinda scary, made me damn proud, never seen an interview with the guy before. Course, don't even think I got any of his talent, that would be the ultimate in obsurdity.

Well, that was a bit off topic.
rob the guy who done seen springsteen 5 or 6 times, know some would be well into the double figures

Well you have to figure in bullet shape to create a shock wave to cause an energy wave to transfer thru out the materail to be tested. One of the best penitrating rifle I ever shot is a 50-140 sharps cartridge with a hard cast bullet.Iwas shoting thru large blocks on dry wood. After goinr thru I was walking down the road looking for the bullets and picking them up. I beleive that they could have been reshot. This was using 77 grains of imr3031. Due to shape not much energy transfer. On the other hand try shooting a 5 gal bucket of ice with an expanding bullet and enjoy the procedes. Also shot it with your 50 and standard bullets. I use a 416 rigby. Then compare remains and let us know what the difference in fragment size is.

I have shot a lot of thin skinned stuff and have noticed the following, 30/06 rounds on paper have similar energy figures to my 45/70 yet the 45/70 creates bigger wounds and kills much more ephatically than a 30/06 does. That flat nose bullets at moderate velocities just seem to kill better than pointy projectiles, maybe because they transfer there nergy quicker I do not know.

The .416 Rigby kills more ephatically than the 45/70, and I will report about the .585 when I get it.

regarding hitting animals, I hit a dog once in my landcruiser and caught the dog on the lefthandside of the bull bar and it was flicked out of the road, yelped and ran off. I stopped to check as it had run out of someones driveway, but it was still running up there drive way flat knacker when I last saw him. Lucky dog

Guys...

Does the energy transfer explod blood vessels, and lungs and heart...??? When a bullet expand fast in the lungs. Does the pressure of the energy transfer explode them.??? Animals are full of water so it can be possible.

overkill,

A 458 with soft bullets into a kangaroo's chest can be what you are talking about.

But, a Toyota Landcruiser running over them is far more effective.

Mike

Mike375...!

No joke. I think that when a soft bullet in a .458 expand then the energy transfer explod blood vessels and similar. Have the lungs in your kangaroo�s been exploded when you have shoot them with soft bullets...?

Mike375...!

Look at my post "Now I know how Energy works" And then say what you think...!

Overkill,

I don't know if the lungs explode. But I do know that sometimes the whole chest cage will be blown out.

When you spotlight shoot there is not a lot of time to examine each animal for the finer details. Everyone wants to move on with the shooting.

But basically, a big soft bullet is the one that does the big blow out.

However, a big male red kangaroo might only weigh 200 or 250 pounds, so it might all be different on animals weighing 700 pounds.

Mike

O'Kill

Had a look at your thread.

I think on big animals, bullet placement and penetration will be the main things.

Shooting big animals with 375, 458 and even 585 would be like hitting kangaroos and pigs with 222 and 243.

You should move to Australia, then you can shoot animals until the barrel wears out and then run over in the Landcruiser what you did not shoot.

Mike

I think Overkill would love Australia Mike

Deranged I agree that to some extent speed is important, but why the huge difference in wounding ability between the 30/06 & 45/70 . This is the classic battle between heavy & slow V light & Fast. The heavy slow combo seems to transfer more energy and thus does more damage. I do not have the physics education to subtansiate with figures what I am saying I am just reporting what I have witnessed.