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JEEZ...WHAT A roundy-roundy to get a picture posted...what happened to copy/paste, drag and drop...

Anyway here is one of my latest projects-in-process...no matter what I never seem to FINALLY finish any of my shooter...always something new to add or subtract.

T/C Encore frame(additional 22-243 Midd barrel)...Witt Machine MB, Scope mount and 3 screw forend mount by Mike Bellm, stock milled out for 18 oz lead shot and forend for epoxied in brass forend mounts and 5 - 875 gr, 20 ga cast lead slugs...thumbhole stock off Ebay...bi-pod from somewhere...total weight as pictured 10# 8.5 oz...think I need to put it on a diet and lose about 12-14 oz, although at the heavier weight the recoil level is down to 300 Win levels not counting the MB.

MY NUMBERS...NOT FACTORY/RELOADING MANUAL data...300 gr Hornady .500" FTX...2.400" COAL slightly off lands, Plus ~0.175" additional powder space...0.170" seating depth...~68.5 Hornady case volume water weighed..QL MAX is ~2600 fs/4490 ft# energy with a nice BC to boot. Haven't started any load development yet, still working/breaking in my 6.5 x 300 WBY Mag.

I'm happy.

Good Hunting

What is the optic ?
Kind of a cute looking rifle . kinda chubby

I have a .500 S&W like this:


Will be watching for some load data.
I dig the longCOL loading technique in the carbine, and having a carbine to go with a shortCOL handgun is cool.
Having to throat a revolver to let the bullets get to the cylinder gap always makes for a nice LongCOL carbine when chambered with standard SAAMI handgun reamer.

Rip ...

Yeah...cute and cuddly like a Mongoose or a Griz cub, lots of mean in a small package.

Scope was designed for AR type rifles...NcSTAR, XRS mil dot, 2-7 x 32mm scope, blue illuminated x-hairs, quick focus and quick release...off my AR-15 223/450 Bush...on sale, should have bought 3 more...I'm wondering just how well it will stand up the the 500's recoil???

I was pleasantly surprised with the longer throat...it adds a bit over 10 gr more seated case volume - usable case volume 50 at 2.195" factory seat with 300 Horn FTX vs 60 at 2.400" over 200 fs more velo and close to 800 lbs more energy...definitely nothing to spit at and MUCH MORE that a pistol's numbers.

How well is that NEF holding up to the recoil? Staying locked up tight? I had a few pop open until I got the locking bolts situated correctly, ESPECIALLY my 45-120...that one was just plain nasty mean at anything above ~40 KPSI and 600 gr + bullets...OK with 45-70/~400 gr...same with the 12/20 "Big Dog" 12 GAFH and wannabe 600 NE...besides the recoil twisting my back up, one shot broke off the forend and dam near split my skull.

I almost bought an NEF just before things started down hill for them but just waited too long looking for that "deal" that never appeared. Being a tight fisted bastid Scotsman has been my downfall for too many hard to find and expensive shooters.

Hummmm

Good Hunting

NONAGONAGIN,
Mine is a safe princess. I have been afraid to fire it and have it fall apart. Have not shot it yet!
I need your load data to consider before I do.
Of course I will start off with the .500 S&W factory loads before I handload for it.
I feel like I am ready to move up from the 480 Ruger/.475 Linebaugh combo, having fairly well mastered that.
Powder-coated cast bullets should be fun.
Harbor Freight Red.

Rip ...

Hahahahahaha...my turn in the barrel, eh..."go get Mikey"...He'll do it. ...I KNOW NOW why the hair on the back of my neck was standing tall. Hehehehehehe.

What's those famous last words..."That's what the paperwork said".

BEFORE you shoot it...have someone( or yourself) check out the locking bolt engagement...you need at least 1/8"...I used a marking pen to color the bolt then slammed it shut smartly...then check how much color was wiped off the bolt, and if it is even across...NEF WASN'T all that careful with flashing removal on the interior of the frame where the bolt runs and it caused the bolt to lock crooked, not lock at all or lock just enough to give you a bad time when you pulled the trigger. It's pretty simple in there but also relatively weak as far a locking goes, but you can do a bit of grinding on the frame to help get a good lockup...you just have to look hard. Gray Beard has some very knowledgeable NEF folks and it also has lots of How-to information AND pictures showing the problems and fix-its, but you probably already know this...Beartooth the same. If I can get my NEF's to shoot and lockup tight ANYONE can

The 500 S&W Mag is SAAMI rated ~62 Kpsi...there are some blurbs online about factory ammo and the NEF, some good, some bad...mostly a lot of whining about the recoil slapping the dog dodo outta everyone...???...but I would tie it to a tree and use a LONG string for the first shot.

I took 14 oz of ugly fat off the beast today...now a "svelte" 9# 12 oz and loaded up a few rounds of 300 FTX starting at ~52 Kpsi to break in the barrel and chrono, but every time I started to set up the rig it started to rain again. Supposed to be this way for another couple days so I will just check for pressure and polish up the bore. I don't have any problems with the Encore handling the 500's pressure...a different type of lockup and plenty of steel around the chamber...it's scary what people have done to wildcat the Contender, like take it out to 50-90 and also the Mag calibers for the Encore and the wildcat aftermarket barrels for both.

Dug out my 375 gr(50-375E Accurate Molds) and 500 gr(50-500E Same) molds and I DO have all the fix-in's for H.F. Red AND Yellow just waiting for it to warm up enough to start casting and cooking.

So far with the long throat and seating depth requirements all the bullets I've crunched using Lil' Gun, H110 and W 296 are ~95 % Plus load density and no other powders really working...a few will go bang but at much lower pressure/velo and 100% load density...good for sagerats.

I have some Hawk 350 FN and HP bullets on the order list...300 gr gets the high velocity but low SD, 350 seems fall in the sweet spot for velo and SD, 400 gr may be even better but I don't have any to try or crunch and I will try Beartooths 440's or turn down some 475 gr .510's just for kicks.

Good Hunting

Murphy was all over me today...every time I turned around he was there trying to get some.

Loaded up 8 rounds last night...300 gr Horn FTX and Lil'Gun but BEFORE I fired and I rechecked QL and Hornady load data and dropped the original charge weight by 10 gr because things weren't looking right...QL definitely got things wrong with this case.

Fired 6 rounds increasing 1 gr at a time...velo started at 2199 fs and climbed relatively evenly. Of course the chrono battery went south, and started giving me meters/sec, the junk numbers and I twitched at the wrong time and shot off one of the sky screen legs....I use wood dowels just for this purpose and have several backups...this in NOT new.

Recoil climbed also up to about 300 WBY Mag 200 gr bullet weight recoil levels and was starting to rock me back a bit and the cases started coming out a golden bluish from the front to about half way down the case, when I stopped due to rain/snow/ wind.

I haven't used much Lil'Gun so I'm not sure what the case color change means.

ONE THING IS CERTAIN QL's data for this cartridge is suspect. Hornady's data for the 300 FTX can be found online but YOU have to look it up I don't publish anything from other sources. I did fire one round with that data BUT at MY COAL which is .175" longer. You've done this before so I probably can't add much in the way of data other than say I would be a bit reluctant to go too high with the NEF...velo or pressure wise.

I will try H110 and some heavier bullets when the weather starts to cooperate. I will also fire a couple 300 FTX rounds each with factory 2.195" COAL and my 2.370" COAL and the same Lil'Gun powder charge to compare velo's which will give me some sort of comparison to play with.

Good Hunting

Lil'gun has a rep in 44mag of being hot temperature wise. It did group well though.

That's good to know. Temps today were in the mid 40°. I have 7-8 "new to me" powders, I'm still trying to sort out.

A couple more bits...cranked off 4 more rounds just a while ago...2 with Lil'Gun and two with "new" W296...loads straight from Hornady's 8th Ed...49 gr Lil'Gun at 2.195" and 2.370" and two with W296 same COAL'S...NONE matched the manual when corrected to 8 3/8", Hodgdons 10" OR at 20"...LiL'Gun went 2306 fs at 2.195" and 2212 fs at 2.370" and W296 went 2173 fs at 2.195" and 2257 fs At 2.370" at 20". Those W296 numbers look reversed so tomorrow a retest...might have went cross eyed from recoil.

Still no sign of pressure...primers look the same from beginning loads to top ones and the top ones still going "blue" on me...looks like the cases are collapsing at the mounth slightly and letting pressure move down between the chamber wall and outside case wall.

Rounds are crimped with a Lee FCD just enough to eliminate the expander bulge otherwise the mouth edge scrapes the chamber walls slightly but obviously.

I think those Hawk soft copper bullets will make this a totally awesome "killer of big beasties".

Good Hunting

Ah-ha! Hornady FTX 300-grainer in the Hornady manual, 10th Ed., print, 49.0 grains of LIL'GUN from 8.375" revolver, 2.195" COL: 2000 fps.

Your rifle with 20" barrel: 2306 fps.

Sounds about right.

Now if you add more powder for the longer COL you might get it up to 2500 fps?

I found it to be true that I could easily get the .475/400-grain XTP to about 2000 fps in a 20" Ruger No.1 by longCOL loading.
The Hornady factory .475 Linebaugh revolver load claimed to give only 1300 fps, Advertised, with whatever barrel length they used,
in a revolver with a cylinder gap, I assume, as that one is not in the Hornady manual, only the 325gr XTP there (7.5" Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh).
That same factory ammo with 400gr XTP (1.745" COL), in my 20" Ruger No.1 at 52*F, gave 1438 fps MV.
Same bullet, same rifle and temperature, loaded to 2.075" COL with 36.5 grains of LIL'GUN gave 1996 fps MV.
Not a maximal load for my rifle.
More than 550 fps faster than factory handgun ballistics:
LongCOL and more powder, longer barrel, no cylinder gap.

If you get a 300-grain FTX up to 2500 fps,
that is .375 H&H level from a handgun cartridge in a carbine. Pretty cool.
You might need a tougher bullet for big game.
Fine varminter though, that FTX.

LIL'GUN is rumored to burn up the throats of revolver barrels.
The carbine with no cylinder gap must not be so susceptible. As long as I don't get the barrel too hot, I worry not about LIL'GUN melting my barrel!

I like LIL'GUN a lot better than H110.
It burns completely with any primer and crimp and bullet weight.
It is not as sticky and fine-grained as H110.
H110 just won't meter and pour as well as LIL'GUN.
I have not used W296 in ages, after I decided H110 was the cat's meow in the 454 Casull with 300-grainers.
Now I like LIL'GUN.

When you get to 500-grainers, consider AA-1680.
It has been shared here as great with heavy-bullet .475 Linebaugh.
I tried it and agree.
Seems to show a lot of promise for .500 S&W also.
Hornady Manual shows it as a top-velocity load with 500-grain FP.
It will probably be even better in a .500 S&W LongCOL load.

All the Hornady loads state at the bottom of each load data page:
"NOTE: This data developed for use with large pistol primers only." That would be like a WLP.
But the introductory page blurb on the cartridge says:
"Primer ............... WLR"
That would be like a Winchester Large Rifle primer!

I did find that WLR primers worked fine in the .475 Linebaugh LongCOL carbine.
LIL'GUN may do fine with WLP or WLR.
Just a little more velocity/pressure with the WLR.
If I am using the slower AA-1680 with heavy bulets, the slowest powder I would consider,
then I am using the WLR.
I reckon LIL'GUN and AA-1680 are the only two powders I need for the .475 Linebaugh LongCOL carbine.
Probably all I will need in the .500 S&W LongCOL too, if the H&R/NEF-er does not go KABOOM.

Discolored brass with LIL'GUN?
I have never seen that.
Low pressure load with soot smudging, smoked case neck?
Please post a photo of that weird brass if you can, under natural sunlight.

Rip ...

That 2306 fs WAS at the longer COAL...2.370"...I fired another yesterday(before the rains came down, oh no...little word play on a once popular song )...it came out 2272 fs. I was using WLR standard primers, I did read a blurb that test between WLR STANDARD and WLR MAG primers showed no preference with L.G. powder but no chrono data between the two. I might try a few somewhere along the line.

The discoloration is happening at the top powder loads so my have something to do with the powder burn rate, is only happening at one spot looks like, NOT evenly around the case mouth periphery. Pics are a bit dicey "IFFY" things...I have a 100 mile round trip to get to WIFI...and IF I remember and IF I have my camera data downloaded and IF Murphy hasn't tried to breed me and IF....

I think there is a bit more velo to be had but nothing over published data will see the light of day from my hand...and I won't say whether or not I've already gone over Hornady's max load for Lil'Gun.

Yeah...1680, IMR and H 4227 look good for my 525 gr LFNGC...I've got a few cans of Hodgdons old red and black round cans of H110 and "new" stock H110/W296 and a small amount of the 30-40 year old W296 to try for comparisons. VERY nice numbers from QL with all those powders BUT I DON'T TRUST QL WITH THIS CARTRIDGE...lots of spurious numbers being spit out that don't come anywhere near my Beta Chrony which can also be a bit devious...I will set up my Oehler 33 behind the Chrony to check things when the weather clears.

I've been doodling a bit with larger volume cases(like I really NEED more freaking slap-around)...a 50-70 Guv case would work great at ~75 gr H2O case volume squashed to .500, it works well sized to .510...already tried a a few 50-90 X 2.00" "Sharps Short", 85 gr H2O, ~2175 fs/5000 ft#/AA1680 in my NEF 50-90(Exterminator, RL7 and the 4227's work also according to QL BUT...I want to try the .500 x 300 gr FTX in the 50-90 Sharps Short some day also...tooooo many thing to try, so little time.

And of course there are several other large cal rimmed cases with similar base numbers that can be turned/sized/trimmed to size and there is always the Linebaugh cases...plus many of these iterations have already been done.

Mucking about with the .500 bore TC could be a wildcatters delight or a total nightmare.

I have some Hawk bullets on order and I will check out Fury Bullets...His .452 H.P.'s look exactly like Hawk's H.P.'s and shoot great in my 450 BM.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
...LiL'Gun went 2306 fs at 2.195" and 2212 fs at 2.370" ...

I interpreted the above (direct quote) to mean that 49.0 grains of LIL'GUN
gave a higher velocity in the shortCOL loading than in the longCOL loading.
Meaning that more powder is needed in the longCOL loading to equal the pressure/velocity of the shortCOL.
And even more powder is needed to exceed it.

Where have I gone wrong?

The 480 Ruger Rossi 20"-barreled Puma Carbine is a lot faster with factory 480 Ruger ammo than my 20"-barreled .475 Linebaugh Ruger No.1 is.
I have to load more powder and use longer COL to make up for the longer chamber, if sticking to the short 480 Ruger brass.

You got about 300 fps gain from the 20" barreled .500 S&W rifle, compared to a 7.5" revolver with same load.
That is good.

I plan to use the WLR primer in the .500 S&W, not WLRM, not WLP.
WLP might be fine for the 480 Ruger, but not the .475 Linebaugh or .500 S&W, IMHO.
WLR for those.

I did some preliminary COL checking with .500 S&W dummies in the NEF-er.

SAAMI max COL is 2.250".

Using a slug stuck in the rifling lands and a rod in the barrel of the NEF-er,
with maximum brass length of 1.620"
the distance from breech face to start of lands is ~2.175".
The bullet jump from case mouth to start of lands is ~2.175" - 1.620" = ~0.555"

That is for my NEF-er, the Encore might be different in the throating. (?)

Some bullets with varying ogives and some COLs that work as dummies to chamber easily in the NEF-er:

500gr Hornady FNSP: 2.365"
450gr North Fork FP: 2.500"
375gr Barnes XPB: 2.520"
422gr CEB Talon-Tipped Raptor: 2.800"
500gr CEB Safari Solid: 2.600"

The 422gr CEB Talon-Tipped Raptor might be a bit long for a 1:18" twist.
It is about 410 grains and shorter without the tip, however.
There are lots of bullets for a true .500-caliber.

Rip ...

Yeah...thats what my notes say, I thought I might have reversed the numbers and fired another the next day at 2.375" and got 2161 fs....could be the Chrony acting up, could be something else...with this case color problem I haven't really looked at redoing loads yet...

Tried some old red/black can H110 today to see if the color problem went away...I DIDN'T but I think I found the problem and I'm not very happy...it means a new barrel. I won't say who or what until I get verification/satisfaction.

The velo went down as the charge went up but again that might be an artifact of the old powder, a very SD spread or the chrono again. 2242 fs to 2202 fs to 2151 fs going up in 1/2 gr increments and according to QL around 42 Kpsi...over 10 Kpsi BELOW what a top load should be, but I don't know the pressures of the Hornady manual and some pressures reported in psi, some in cup...a total muck-up.

I will use my Oehler 33 tomorrow and hopefully get some better numbers as QL is just pissing on my parade. I'm getting close to tossing this POS and doing a .500 stub barrel for one of my NEF frames or selling/trading the .500 bullets and dies IF I can....just ordered some Fury 350 gr plastic tipped today also, so I have at least 200 .500" bullets heading this way.

My T/C has a 2.816" throat for a 300 FTX bullet...1.87" to base of bullet dropped into the chamber stopping at the lands plus 0.946" = 2.816" - 0.200" seat = 2.616" - 2.350" = ~0.266 jump plus or minus a bit or 2.616" - 2.195" factory recommended seat = ~0.421". HOW you use that space or whether it is usable or not depends on many factors that we get so much pleasure rooting around in.

Good Hunting

Here is the problem with the blue cases...a cracked chamber.

Condolences to NONAGONAGIN.
We take comfort that your noggin is not gone!
How the heck does something like that happen?
Is there something about how the T/C Encore is built that makes it prone to a metallurgical failure?
Was there any welding or monobloc-stubbing involved in putting it together?

Rip ...

Thanks, RIP... I dodged a nasty one there.

NO PROBLEM with T/C's metallurgy or welding...this is a problem with the 500 SW ONLY and the positioning/dimensioning of the scope mount screw holes

The end of the 500 case coincides with the front scope mount screw holes...the two screw holes are TOO close together, ~0.350" separation, and TOO deep. ~0.185" in relation to the case diameter and case mouth position. The crack started at that point, not certain exactly where as the crack propagated both forward and rearward and ran just like the Liberty Bell's famous crack.

I think the engineers just blew off or didn't look at the positioning of the mount holes to save money in machining both the barrel and the OEM scope mount itself...ALL Encores use the same dimensions and parts.

I will send the barrel to T/C but I'm betting they won't do anything about it other than MAYBE send me a new barrel..WITH THE SAME PROBLEM.

I GUARANTEE if I don't get some kind of satisfaction I will submit this to the court of media attention...with ALL THE PICTURES...IF I GET THE BARREL BACK.

Now I have the problem of what to do with all the .500 boolits and molds...I don't want to throw any more money at this project, I can't find any rental reamers in .500" and I have too many other .510 cannons...LOTS of possibilities with the 50-110 WCF and 50-90 Sharps cases but all the good .500 cal cases are proprietary and $750 bucks for a barrel, reamer and dies just doesn't cut it.

Anyway, time will tell.

Good Hunting

That is amazing to see from TC, lucky you were not hurt for both parties !

I have been after a H&R 500 S&W for years but the cases are very expensive down here.

I made up a 500NE 3 1/4in on a H&R Handy Rifle, the recoil was truly amazing with full loads, like being in a Car Crash, but the rifle kept going !

I tend to think this muck-up is an anomaly brought on by several factors all stacked one on top of the other...soft bullet, sized up then down in the forcing cone, too close to the weaker screw holes...basically only ~0.048" between the bottom of the #6 - 0.114" OD screw hole and the chamber...0.350" between holes...so calculate the area of that 0.114" x 0.350" by 0.185" hunk of steel and the unknown pressure at firing...the case stopping ~0.100" from the 3rd screw hole and all that pressure hitting a stress riser maybe right at the wrong place...There is ample opportunity for SOMETHING to go south...YES I'M FORTUNATE it was progressive and not a instantaneous blow up, but it was freaking close.

Handy's are OK if they are tuned and made to hold tight...I have a 26" 45-120 Buffalo classic that is downright painful in the recoil department with a 720 gr slug..total train wreck...I've only fired ONE of those rounds at ~45 Kpsi in a 12# rifle that twisted my back/side around so quickly and badly I was walking funny and not shooting anything much larger than a 22 LR for almost 8 months...I don't even want to THINK of a 500 NE, little OR big.

I've taken my 50-90 Sharps stub barrel NEF up, SLOWLY, with weights from ~450 gr to my own 710 LFNGC, jacketed and cast until they stung pretty good in that 11.5# 20" thumb holed stocked shooter...I guarantee it puts out all the thump I want or need.

The barrel chamber OD is what, 1.115" or there abouts, the chamber wall is ~0.285" plus/minus a bit and if you calculate the back thrust on the frame face even with a large diameter case rim it is not all that high. The weakness is in the locking bolt of the NEF...if that hasn't been 'smithed to maximum amount of the locking face then the rifle pops open...T/C's have a much different locking system.

I've thought about a 50-140 stub barrel NEF now and then and I have a dummy round on my desk right next to the 585 GMA, 600 Overkill, 505 Gibbs, 1 are common2 GAFH and 20 ga wannabe 600 NE. Whenever that wacky tobaccy wafts across the forest from the neighbors I get to feeling really mellow and I take a look at them again.

I hope I can solve this problem easily by T/C doing the right thing sending me a new barrel, I have an email and pics of the cracks in to them today, and I talked to Mike Bellm, THE T/C MAN HIMSELF, about the problem and possible solution...I will know soon.


I finally learned I didn't have to load to the max with the larger bores to have fun... hahahahaha.

Good Hunting

My Handy would have weighted a bit less than a normal 45/70, Super Light for a 500NE & stupid really, the plan was a subsonic .50cal & I got silly, the 50-140 was my first idea & should have been the way to go but really a 50/110 - 50/90 - 50 Alaskan is all any one would ever need !



I to have been finding the Max recoil is over rated !

Yeah, you DO have the light one...a full load for a "Normal" 570 gr bullet will go over 100 ft-lbs easy....maybe 40 years ago but NOT today...half that and I would need to sit down for a little while and feel sorry for myself after 3-4.

Not too much difference volume wise between the 500 NE - 3" and the 50-140 3 1/4", my Jamison 50-140's run 150 gr H2O and the Jamison 50-90 2.5" runs 115 gr H2O...Velos are close between the two by using faster powders in the -90, recoil goes up quicker in the -140 because more weight in the ejecta mass. Lots of room there to play with both. I mucked about with 2.75" and 2.85" cut down -140 cases that fit in the -90 chamber that long...turned some .510 bullets down to 0.495" bore riding to get a COAL of 3.50" with several weights of cast lead bullets up to up to ~2400 fs with the lighter weights...recoil was a bit stiff with the heavier ones. I have a BIG MB on it so that helped along with the rifle weight.

It's very satisfying and amazing what you can do, SAFELY, by futzing around with the reloading tools.

Good Hunting