Well, I guess I'm among those malleable minds who are easily influenced by others. I just re-read Ross Seyfried's article on 12 Gauge Rifles in Rifle magazine. Toooooooo cooooooool. That guy has some interesting guns.

Some links for your viewing pleasure:

• Thad Scott Rifles
• The Second Shot
• Fred Roberts Guns - look under "RIFLED CHOKE & BORE RIFLES - (Nitro & Black Powder)"
• A lot of (nearly 40) references to illegal use similar to this Army in Kashmir page. One does wonder if they mean "rifle" or like the American press just can't get it right.
• A John Wilkes 12 bore rifle
• A "W.W. Greener shotgun / rifle combo Cape Gun"
• Simmons Gun Company/Antique Firearms
• Monty Whitley, Inc.
• Jason Abbot
• LeClair, Davis & Co. for you cartridge collectors

Clearly I have more time here at work than I should have...

Hey Hobie,

I bought a Mossburg 12 gauge "rifle" a few years ago and still haven't shot it. I don't particularly like the shotgun slugs that are that are offered commerically.

I think it would be great to load 12 gauge round balls and see how they work. I wonder what kind of velocity you could get...583 grain round ball could get real interesting - real fast! I imagine it could be real punishing on both ends.

Great post, Hobie.

Good shooting,

Smoker

Hobie,

The 12 bore rifle was used in India to take all our big game in the past - there were partly rifled barrels like the "paradox" and fully rifled ones like the "explora" - I guess even though a number of tigers, lion, leopard and elephant were taken with these, they were later given up for more powerful rifles.

For a long time (since 1984) we had a ban on the ownership of rifles in calibers larger than 8mm - I presume a number of owners of the old 12 bore rifles must have had them registered as shotguns and managed to keep them! A recent Supreme Court ruling threw the caliber restrictions out and I guess some of the old guns that have been rotting (an apt word albeit a sad one in this context) in dealerships in India will probably see sales and very occasional use.

Kashmir has a few gun factories that make double barreled shotguns - again I wonder if any have machinery to make the old style explora or paradox barrels. If they did, I'd like to have a look at them some time.

This is not related to your post but a member on Ar told me that there were blackpowder rifles being manufactured in India and I learned about a company that has been doing this since 1813 and is still in existence! This is a wonderful site - I have learned quite a bit about my own country over here.

Good hunting!

Mehul,
I can imagine there being sort of flintlock blackpowder rifles made in India but your post intrigues me. What is the company and do they build muzzle-loaders or BP double rifles? The latter would be exciting to the nth degree! I've wanted an 8-bore for years . . . not that I have the guts to touch one off!

I wonder if a 12 ga coach gun could be threaded for removeable chokes, and fit with rifled choke tubes. You'd likely have to regulate it, but for the $, it would be a fun toy.

Oldsarge,

The company in question has a website www.curioushouse.com and they build firing as well as non firing replica 2 and 3 line rifled muskets, muzzleloaders, of course, based on old East India Company styles. And they have been doing this since 1813.

Another company builds double blackpowder shotguns but I have written to them and they haven't replied so far. I'll post about them as soon as I have detailed information from them.

The Kashmiri gunshops (and reuters had a recent piece on them) build more modern boxlock and sidelock 12 bore shotguns. The 12 is the only shotgun bore that is popular in India and I have seen very few 16 and 20 bores. It would be a treat if they made Paradox or Explora guns!

mehulkamdar,

Thanks for the cool link. Interesting after your comments that there is still commercial arms production.

I've been reading, on the net, about a lot of criminals caught with 12 bore rifles. Do you think they are actually rifles or perhaps shotguns? I've seen a few references in THIS country to 12 gauge rifles, and then they state the model which is obviously a shotgun. Is there perhaps a legal means by which you (or some like minded individual) could export these as an agent for the Indian government? Might be some money in it? (Or are they kept as national treasures and destroyed as contraband?)

Hobie,

Gajendra Singh Parihar who owns The Curious House is an exporter of muzzleloaders. Any Indian licensed firearms dealer can export guns but you need an antiques license if the gun is more than 90 years old. I have bought old guns for friends in the past and the dealers in question have exported them but of late there have been some restrictions on exporting very old guns. I know of one dealer who has some mint pieces from the Srirangapatna Armoury of Tipu Sultan that he wants to surrender to the Government since he has been trying to export them for some time without being able to get an antiques license.

As far as the 12 bore rifles are concerned, there is a more than fair possibility that they are rifles and not shotguns since the old Paradox and Explora guns were very popular with shooters who were on a tight budget. I won't argue with anyone who says that these were not as effective as dedicated powerful big game rifles (they would certainly know more than I do since my own experience is limited, though I have killed wild boar with these guns) but since there are factories that make double shotguns, there just might be 12 bore rifles still being made. I'll try to find out, if nothing else, to satisfy my own curiosity. As far as rifles are concerned, we have a ridiculous .315 IOR caliber, an 8mm bullet in a 303 British case manufactured by the Indian Ordnance factories. These are used by some of the Naxalite (Marxist) groups fighting the government though nowadays the Nepalese marxist groups have been arming their Indian comrades with AK 47s etc.

If you need any help from my end, do let me know. This is not business - if I could do something it would be a pleasure.

Good hunting!