Is 2400 fps the magic velocity for big bore DGR? Is it a ceiling or a floor (i.e. should you try to stay under it, reach it, or exceed it)?

Just wanted to know what others think..

Matt V.

i am not sure what cal big bore you are wondering about but in my .460 wby i have made some "varmit loads" i took 300 grain hp designed for the 45/70 and loaded them with 130 grains of varget and fed 215 primers and they will not go through a milk jug full of water they just decinagrate please excuse my spelling

My opinion ...... 2200fps - 2400fps -- anything .400 calibre & above.

RH,

That would be an awesome "varmint round". But I was referring to the use of big bore rifles on dangerous game (buffalo, hippo, etc).

2400 is the number thrown around allot. But you do see some big rifles pushed in excess of this (various 375, 416, etc).

My thoughts have always been once you reach 2400 fps with a specific cartridge that you need to move up in bullet weight if you want more power (for reliable terminal performance).

So, I've always thought of 2400 fps as a ceiling limitation. Just trying to see what others think.

Matt V.

My own observations of bullet penetration ( I assume penetration is the keyword here) is that there is a velocity where the bullet is impeded because it opens too fast and prevents penetration.

I have no clue where that velocity point is but I think it's far more dependent on which bullet you're shooting.

I agree that 2,400 seems the number mentioned often here.

Aye, it depends on the strength and design of the bullet.

In summary of many years of hunting, shooting and sharing the experiences of many here, I think the most useful short range velocity bracket for big bore DGR's of .375 caliber and larger is 2100 fps to 2700 fps.

So 2400 fps is the average.

The delicate old-fashioned bullets are best at 2100 to 2200 fps.

Big smackers that are tough and heavy do better the faster they go (if the bullets are not too long and the twist is "more than enough"), but penetration approaches the limit far below 2700 fps. The faster bullet hits harder and penetrates no less if it is an FN solid.

Even the faster small bores foul more and gain little over what could be done at long range with a heavier and higher BC bullet at 2700 fps, unless of course they are the high-tech sort such as a GSC HV that just gets better, the faster it is driven.

The bullet is the deciding factor.

Yes. The bullet. Taylor says in the forward of Ar&C that 2350 fps is the magic number. That was in his day with bullets and ammo available. I am working on my plans for load dev. for my .404.(British proofed 16.5 tons) So I will use both soft and solid Woodleighs, North Fork 380's, and A Frames and try to determine what powder gives the best combination of accuracy,pressure/std.dev., and penetration. Then I will buy a lot of them and do something else. So I think the "magic" may be for a particular rifle and specific bullet. Or in East Texas speak, my magig ain't your magic. Thanks RIP for your suggestions.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Aye, it depends on the strength and design of the bullet.
The bullet is the deciding factor.

Sorry RIP but I can't resist! You didn't mention the forbidden word!!

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Aye, it depends on the strength and design of the bullet.
The bullet is the deciding factor.

Sorry RIP but I can't resist! You didn't mention the forbidden word!!

The T-word is indeed mentioned. Read a bit more slowly and you will find it above.

It's good to see more people in agreement of quality bullets being able to be driven faster. The 2400 fps max that was toted for so many years seemed to be a fixation that wouldn't go away. You might as well get the little extra trajectory.
Take good care,
Dave

The perfect example of big bore velocity versatility would be the 470 Mbogo, as with 500 grain bullets it can be loaded from 2100 fps with H4831SC to 2700 fps with RL-15, depending on:

a) The toughness of the bullet.

b) The thickness of the rifleman's skull.

I see things differently than most previous posters, especially I think with regards to solids.

Todays bullets loaded to yesterday's velocities, ie NE, or original 404 velocities, in 400 up produce adequate penetration. Push up penetration by swithching to a flat nose solid, or maybe a little more velocity, or both, thats a good thing. But switch up to a bigger bullet rather than far exceed the old velocities.

For example, a 458 Lott shooting a 500gr Woodleigh solid at 2250fps is fantastic, better than a 450NE shooting a 480gr Woodleigh at 2150fps. If you want even more performance, and are willing to pay the recoil price, switch to a 500NE or equivelent rather than switch to a 460wby. The performance gain from the bigger bullet will exceed the performance from the same bullet going much faster. Same holds true for any solid to similar solid switch, ie flat nose solid out of a 450 vs Lott vs 460 vs 500.

JPK

I want an impact velocity of 2250fps or over. in my experience this is the critical cut off velocity for "shock" on cats, and, using a suitable bullet, on buff.

Since I am only concerned with shock when stopping a charge- lets call it a MV of 2300fps just to be safe.

Before peole wade in and say that you cannot "shock" a buffalo- true- except...If the bullet hits the heart when it is pumping (rather than filling) or a major artery at the same time, it will cause instant death -if it is still going fast enough when it reaches that organ to cause a shock wave in the blood. If you are using a big enough bullet- Kevin Robersons .505 or Mike La Grange's .500 A square are two men/rifle combination's that I have seen where the "shock" effect on buffalo was definately noticeable.

On cats, the effect is very noticeable. My 9,3 flattens a lion with much more authority than a .458 Win - simply due to velocity.

I know that some of here have more "twisted" views than others, So I'll just throw my humble $ .02 in.

There is definitely a cut off point on velocity both low and high where the bullet is no longer giving it's best performance.

For instance in regards to tough animals like a BIG feral hog there is almost no difference in killing ability between a .30-06 and a .300 win both firing a well made 180gr bullet.

And a .300 Ultra gives no advantage in regards to knock down and shock on a big hog, at all over a .300 Win.

Now take a 175gr bullet out of a .30-30 and it has noticeably less effect on a similar sized hog than does a .30-06.

The same can be said for each and every caliber out there, they all have a sweet spot for a given bullet weight and construction type.

To cover the gamut however the 2100 -2700 statement made above pretty well gets it covered.

Another factor is that some animals are far more susceptible to shock than others. As Gyanana mentioned, cats are very susceptible to shock therefore a faster bullet tends to be more dramatic on a cat or a canine for that matter.

Big hogs, cape buffalo, and many others just don't react to shock in most cases. On these types of animals we are more concerned about solid straight line deep penetration than initial velocity. We want a starting velocity which will give the best and ,most reliable penetration for the given bullet/ caliber choice rather than a maxed out speed demon. What that velocity is depends on your caliber and your bullet choice.

That is a very difficult thing to get across to many of our magnum crazed hunters here in the States. They have worshipped at the alter of velocity for too long.

I'd say that is good poop from Ganyana.
The extra velocity adds some definite hurt and does not detract from the penetration with the right bullet.

I can SEE a definite difference with 200 fps extra on the Iron Water Buffalo (IWB) penetration tester. The boards and water are flung higher.

A one shot kill on a cape buffalo with a 2500 fps .416 Rigby load made him buck skyward like a rodeo bull, with a broken shoulder and pierced heart and lungs and an exit wound. OUCH!

A 2400 fps 500 A2 lung hit on an 1830 pound bison made him fall over sideways at the shot, not spined, he got right back up. Ouch again.

I'm not saying this is "knock down power," it just gets their attention better.

quote:

On cats, the effect is very noticeable. My 9,3 flattens a lion with much more authority than a .458 Win - simply due to velocity

Ganyana,

What you expect the results to be if the 458 was loaded with a soft bullet.

Mike

2500 fps would be my minimum velocity for hunting dangerous game.

3000 fps is the minimum I would choose to hunt plains game.

I’ve read Kevin Robertson’s book “The Perfect Shot†and I think it is a great explanation of real world ballistics. But Reading about real world terminal ballistics and actually seeing them in action are two different things. That’s why I like to post topics like this, there are individual here on AR that have killed far more large game than I have and probably ever will (I am no armchair QB, I respect the opinion of those whom have more experience than me).

I get the vibe that we can go in excess of 2400 when proper bullets are used. Kevin Robertson says than when velocity is excessive that straight line penetration is compromised. At what point do you think this happens, or do you guys think it even happens?

And for the sake of high jacking my own thread, do you guys think that frontal area contributes to the shocking effect on animals? I don’t think that anyone would disagree that sectional density aids in penetration?

I’ve always been of the mind set that a high momentum value coupled with tough bullet construction and high sectional density equals good penetration. I’ve also thought that high energy values coupled with lighter bullet construction and more frontal area contribute to more shock power (Probably just regurgitating Robertson here).

The biggest animals I’ve ever killed were American Bison. I used a 416 Rigby with 400 grain Nosler Partitions. I’ve also helped out at my local deer processing facility and have seen my fair share of terminal wound channels.

So, in short what do ya guys think? Does Robertson have a good all-around theory on terminal ballistics?

Matt V.

Saeed: When hunting plains game in South Africa with my .300 Win. Mag. using Nosler Partitions at a hair over 3000fps, I found that in some instances my velocity was excessive (& my PH agreed) for perfect expansion of the bullet, and I was simply poking holes through some of the game. This happened on a wildebeest and took four shots to make the kill (all good hits); also happened on a Zebra my son took. What are your thoughts concerning this ? I left Africa thinking that 2800fps would have served me better with the .300, and my PH DEFINITELY agreed with that (he highly recommended the .30-06 over the .300 WM next trip).

Can Anyone say that a 300gr. 41 -458 caliber Barnes X bullet @ an impact velocity of 2500 fps or faster does or does not kill as fast or faster than a 400 gr 40 - 480/500 gr 458 @ 2300fps on down .. on lion or Cape Buffalo or the Asian bison/ buffalo/wild cattle with a chest shot...??????? Has any one seen or heard of them failing...If they worked , how well did they work......?????????????

quote:

I left Africa thinking that 2800fps would have served me better with the .300, and my PH DEFINITELY agreed with that (he highly recommended the .30-06 over the .300 WM next trip).

On my return trip the 30-06 will be the prime weapon for plains game.....last time I used a 300 H&H but will easily forgo the little extra velocity for the lesser weight of the 30-06 and I don't believe I'll loose a thing in performance of rifle/bullet combo!

I think the higher velocity allows one to have the same impact velocity at a greater distance. If you shoot a high quality bullet,lets say a .475-500 grain bullet at 2500 fps, if your in need of a shot off the end of the barrel the bullet will stand up to it and perform. If you have an opertunity to shoot 100 yards your impact velocity will still be high compaired to the same bullet with a 2100 fps start. The bullet starting out at 2500 fps will still carry a good impact velocity out at 200 to 250 yards where the 2100 fps load will really be lacking at these distances. This could be the difference between putting wounded game down and a big tracking job.

Hi Frank,
I think if you tried a different bullet like the Swift A-Frames you would find different results. The Nosler is a good bullet but it does blow off the front end very quickly and the remainder of the shank penetrates like a solid. Their new bullets with the bonded front end would also be a good choice. Did you recover any of the bullets from your animals? The same goes for the 300 Win compared to the 30-06. It lets you do the same thing a little further out.
Take good care and the best of the season,
Dave

Mike

Was comparing .458 Win soft points with 9,3 soft points.

As to bullet shape...

I like the theory of flat nosed bullets. All the ammo I had made for Zim parkes was flat nosed. On head shots on elephants a flat nosed bullet definately "hits" harder. (probably doesn't penetrate as deptly But I think it holds straighter - different argument anyway).

I have recently started using Barnes baneded flat nosed solids in my back up rifle, but use woodleigh solids in my 9,3. Woodleighs have just worked for years and why change a load on a winning formualr?

On buff, a flat nosed bullet leaves a clean entry wound which means you get a blood spoor to follow much sooner. I Use Ken Stuarts Flat nosed Soft points for Lion and buff. Clean cut entry wounnd and deep penetration.

I am quite particular about clean cut entry wounds...I was nearly squashed by a buff that I misread. On one of our buff erradication culls, I was asked to follow up a buff that was "believed to have been hit". There was no blood spoor and no change in gait that I could see. Even the tracker wasn't sure, but the farmer who fired the shot said he was certain he had hit the buff square in the middle of the chest (frontal). The tracker an I took off on the spoor on hard packed soil, and I was tyring to look at spoor and help him (instead of watching the bush- but hey, we were only 50m from 30 men standing round half a dozen trucks). Sudenly that bull poped round the corner of an anthill 10 yards away and came. I was slow to react, the tracker wasn't- he ran over me. I shot the buff whilst sitting on my backside. Fortunately he was very badly hit, not running properly and locked onto the tracker who was running off to one side, so fell dead about a pace to my right. He was dead on his feet, but all bleeding was internal.

On another occasion, a farmer hit a buff dead centre in the chest with a .416 rigby (with a soild), and it pushed off. Again I was the government idiot who had to follow it and I set off without enough kit, fully expecting to find it dead within a fe hundred metres. About 5km later I faced a very determined charge from an angry but very fit buffalo. On dissecting him we found that the bullet had gone above the heart, between the lungs and the only damage was a tiney hole in the diaphram and the bullet stopped in the stomach! We were lucky to have found him. Consiquently - I want blood soon, and a bleeding entry wound delivers that. Even if flat nosed bullets were infoerior in other ways I would still probably use them. Heck I stayed with RWS TUG's until I discovered Ken!

Mike

Was comparing .458 Win soft points with 9,3 soft points.

As to bullet shape...

I like the theory of flat nosed bullets. All the ammo I had made for Zim parkes was flat nosed. On head shots on elephants a flat nosed bullet definately "hits" harder. (probably doesn't penetrate as deptly But I think it holds straighter - different argument anyway).

I have recently started using Barnes baneded flat nosed solids in my back up rifle, but use woodleigh solids in my 9,3. Woodleighs have just worked for years and why change a load on a winning formualr?

On buff, a flat nosed bullet leaves a clean entry wound which means you get a blood spoor to follow much sooner. I Use Ken Stuarts Flat nosed Soft points for Lion and buff. Clean cut entry wounnd and deep penetration.

I am quite particular about clean cut entry wounds...I was nearly squashed by a buff that I misread. On one of our buff erradication culls, I was asked to follow up a buff that was "believed to have been hit". There was no blood spoor and no change in gait that I could see. Even the tracker wasn't sure, but the farmer who fired the shot said he was certain he had hit the buff square in the middle of the chest (frontal). The tracker an I took off on the spoor on hard packed soil, and I was tyring to look at spoor and help him (instead of watching the bush- but hey, we were only 50m from 30 men standing round half a dozen trucks). Sudenly that bull poped round the corner of an anthill 10 yards away and came. I was slow to react, the tracker wasn't- he ran over me. I shot the buff whilst sitting on my backside. Fortunately he was very badly hit, not running properly and locked onto the tracker who was running off to one side, so fell dead about a pace to my right. He was dead