came across an article and it listed this as a .465H&H india. anyone ever heard of this or more importantly, shot it? would love to hear about it.

Not sure what the "this" in your post refers to & without knowing the date of the article, I would guess that 465 H&H India refers to the flanged double rifle round that was H&Hs proprietry equivalent to the 470 NE. Other than a tad smaller in bullet diameter, it is very nearly identical in dimensions & ballistics & would certainly have been used to hunt in India in the days of the Raj, Elephant, Tiger & Gaur spring to mind as likely targets for it. Seeing as big game hunting is no longer legal in India AFAIK, it is unlikely that H&H are promoting their recent 465 H&H Magnum as being an "India" round.
Steve.

Since I'm a non-dangerous-game hunter, I've only heard of it:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/465_HHMag.htm


Rifles are crazy expensive anyway for a pensioner like me.

The ".465 India" was the name Holland originally promoted their .500/.465 3 1/4" Nitro Express under when it was introduced in 1907. It was given that name because it was intended to replace the .500/.450 NE in the Indian market. The name ".465 India" has nothing to do with Holland's recent .465 Rimless.

With the exception of the .470, all of these .470 group flanged Cordite cartridges were introduced at that time for the Indian market due to widespread enforcement errors arising from the 1899 military caliber ban there. The .450 Nitros were never banned, but the order gradually came to be erroneously interpreted that way over time by many bureaucrats.

I've shot the .465 some. Not really any different from any other .450/.470 group double rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

for the Indian market due to widespread enforcement errors arising from the 1899 military caliber ban there. The .450 Nitros were never banned, but the order gradually came to be erroneously interpreted that way over time by many bureaucrats.

Is that in print somehwere?

We got a problem, BYF42! I can understand wanting to get rid of Obama, but why foist him off on the rest of us? I have a box of Kynoch primed brass, and it is a great looking case. PM 465 H&H here, he shoots a DR in that caliber.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

The .450 Nitros were never banned, but the order gradually came to be erroneously interpreted that way over time by many bureaucrats

I'm confused myself now.
I understood that all .450s were banned for use in both Africa and India. Here's an article that deals with this:

http://www.rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/gibbs_450/gibbs_450.htm

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

The .450 Nitros were never banned, but the order gradually came to be erroneously interpreted that way over time by many bureaucrats

I'm confused myself now.
I understood that all .450s were banned for use in both Africa and India. Here's an article that deals with this:

http://www.rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/gibbs_450/gibbs_450.htm

That version has been parroted endlessly, but that doesn't make it true.

The hotspot in India at the end of the 19th century was the Northwest Frontier, the border between British India and Afghanistan, as the same border between Pakistan and Afghanistan remains a hotspot today. At the time, the Afridi tribesmen were raiding military stockpiles for rifles and ammunition, and using them to shoot up the place. Like bureaucrats today, The Right Honourable The Governor in Council for the Bombay Presidency had a typical bureaucrat's solution. In March, 1899, he issued an order banning the importation of rifles and ammunition in .303 British, .577/.450 Martini Henry, and .577 Snider - the three military rifles and cartridges then stockpiled in India - in a misguided attempt to deny arms and ammunition to the rebels. Further, residents of India of British and European descent, whether British subjects or not, were specifically exempted from the order. Such residents were permitted to import rifles in the banned calibers, together with a quantity of ammunition suitable for personal use. The reference to the Foreign Office in the link above is simply fluff, as the Foreign Office had no authority over India. British authority over India was exercised directly through the crown's Viceregal, and the Secretary of State for India, Lord Hamilton, neither of which chose to meddle in this affair.

The ban was aimed at the native Indian population, but the Maharajas were a huge source of revenue to the British gun trade. The trade didn't care much about the other two, but the .303 ban was a huge problem. The .303 was then to the British what the .30-06 has been to us for the last 100 years. They got busy introducing replacement cartridges for it for the Indian market. The .400/.350, .350 No. 2, the four .400/.360s, and Holland's .375 2 1/2" Flanged Nitro Express were all introduced as .303 replacements between 1899 and 1901. BSA also picked up the 8mm BSA, also called the .315 Mauser, for the previously .303 caliber Lee-Enfield sporting rifles that they manufactured for the Indian market.

With the .303 issue then resolved, that should have been the end of it. Unfortunately, Indian civil service bureaucrats gradually began to interpret the order as prohibiting ALL .303, .450, and .577 bore rifles. This interpretation was clearly illegal, as the Governor's order was very specific, but the trade couldn't get in front of the problem for some reason. Because the import of most of the .450 sporting ammunition was gradually being strangled due to misinterpretation of the order, a crisis in the availability of ammunition for them in India resulted, which peaked in 1906. To the trade, the only way to cut the Gordian knot seemed to be what was done with the .303.

Eley Brothers first drew the .500/.465 NE, .475 3 1/4" NE, and the .475 No. 2 NE in January, 1907. In February, the original version of the .475 No. 2 was discarded, and a new version drawn, which Eley retained for proprietary purposes, and another version of it was drawn for Jeffery's proprietary use. By that time, Holland had picked up the .500/.465 as proprietary, and Cogswell & Harrison the .475 3 1/4". Westley Richards introduced their .476 somewhat later.

It's true that the .450 bore was banned in the Sudan, but it certainly never was in the remainder of British Africa. In fact, the three .450 Nitros remained very popular throughout the remainder of British territory in Africa for a long time after. Theodore Roosevelt used a Holland .450 on his famous safari in 1910, and Kermit used a Rigby .450. Many famous East African professionals continued to use .450s for as long as Kynoch continued to make the ammunition, including Philip Percival, who ordered a new pair of Lang .450 No. 2s in 1927.

For the British gun trade, the Indian rifle market was huge. In comparison, the African market was never more than a small sideshow, and the Sudan a tiny segment of that. The ban in the Sundan was too insignificant to matter to them.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

When are you people going to learn???

When it comes to the History of Double Rifles, and their cartridges, 400 Nitro, IS the best reference, He is the Briticanica.

Now, IF, I could just get him to shoot a SCOPED DOUBLE, then HE would be in the 21 Century.

PS. His dad hunts with one.

However, It is not that he NEEDS a scope, as he is most proficient on game, with the iron sights on his doubles, as I have been with him on several occasions where he has HAMMERED pigs, while I could not even shoot in their general direction.

quote:

That version has been parroted endlessly, but that doesn't make it true.

Whatever is true about the past situation, it doesn't matter anymore I suppose. .458's are obviously alive and well now!

I would imagine the the .465 H&H is a good cartridge for its intended purpose, but it seems superfluous to me. But variety is still the spice of life!

quote:

That version has been parroted endlessly, but that doesn't make it true.

Well, according to your account, the 450's were indeed banned, but by the Indians and not the British.

Since I presume you were not there you must be using some reference material for this. Someone along the way must have documented this or otherwise it is just another story.

To prove the negative one must have on hand all the British and Indian proclomations, orders, directives, and other documentation to prove that none such bans were ever issued.

I can believe that the Indian market was much larger for expensive doubles than for the white trash farmers in Africa, but before any Academy Awards are handed out for this documentary it would be nice to know this is not a docu-drama.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

That version has been parroted endlessly, but that doesn't make it true.

Well, according to your account, the 450's were indeed banned, but by the Indians and not the British.

Since I presume you were not there you must be using some reference material for this. Someone along the way must have documented this or otherwise it is just another story.

To prove the negative one must have on hand all the British and Indian proclomations, orders, directives, and other documentation to prove that none such bans were ever issued.

I can believe that the Indian market was much larger for expensive doubles than for the white trash farmers in Africa, but before any Academy Awards are handed out for this documentary it would be nice to know this is not a docu-drama.

It's actually quite well covered in surviving documents. But hey, you're the novelist Willie. You should know how to conduct research. I won't do it for you. Then again, perhaps you don't know how or can't be bothered with it, which is why you're a novelist.

You never fail to be the first to resort to insults.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
We got a problem, BYF42! I can understand wanting to get rid of Obama, but why foist him off on the rest of us? I have a box of Kynoch primed brass, and it is a great looking case. PM 465 H&H here, he shoots a DR in that caliber.

Idaho Sharpshooter- i wouldnt wish obama on my worst enemy.... his popularity shows either how people are disillusioned with the government and the voting process, or how stupid people are that they would elect a hollywood showboat type for our president. either way, hopefully he doesnt win and is confined in my state.

as for the person known as 465 H&H, I'll keep my eyes peeled. would love to know more about this cartridge. thanks!

quote:

You never fail to be the first to resort to insults.

Hey, I'm not trying to be insulting. I just want one little fish that shows this to be true.

It is like trying to publish any work, it should have references to back up statements, theories, etc. And least in the scientific world.

And is not that I doubt what you say but it has no more credibility than anyone else's story. And I don't mean that in an insulting way. If the illegitimate "banning story" gets parroted perpetuately, as you say, it may be because no one has any documented proof to support it or any documented proof to deny it.

In my career I performed hundreds of technical reviews of proposed publications. Every single word had to be justified and documented. Maybe that is an unfair bar to subject such a recreational topic, but just because you say it is one way or another doesn't make it true any more than anyone else's explanation, without documentation.

But like I said before, the 45 caliber ammunition was banned in India and the Sudan. As to why, your story is as good as any.

if the 100 pieces of Kynoch brass I have were boxer primed, there would be a 465H&H Ruger #1 in my gunrack today. 465 H&H's has passed the only important test...on Elephants.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

It has been said that people that shoot scoped doubles rifles wear pink Speedos? I can't confirm this but I do know that they howl at the moon and chase rabbits on a full moon and udulge in incestious practices with goats!!

It is hard to document much of the history of the 450 ban but from all I have read, 400 Nitro's version is spot on.

I have used the 500/465 3 1/4" (465H&H India) on several safaris and have taken 5 elephants and 11 buff with it. I like it although in my opinion it is no better or worse than any of the English flanged big bore shells from 450 3 1/4" up to the 475 No. 2.

465 H&H

When hunting officially ended in India in the 70s and ammo was also difficult to find. I remember going into gun shops to buy air-rifle pellets as a kid and seeing rows upon row of fine double rifles for sale. You couldnt give them away in those days! I personally know someone who exchanged a 465 H&H Royal for a 30-06 Husqvarna. Another close friend sold his 369 Purdeys for $2000 at today's exchange rate! My own uncle exchanged his father's double 500H&H hammer gun for a air rifle, such were the sins committed in those days!

Hey, I've got a 9.3 Husqvarna for trade! Is that close enough?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Hey, I'm not trying to be insulting.

There went your credibility.

quote:

It is like trying to publish any work, it should have references to back up statements, theories, etc. And least in the scientific world.

Been published with references. I guess if it's news to Willie, it's news.

quote:

In my career I performed hundreds of technical reviews of proposed publications.

Your difficulty with reading comprehension must have made that a sore trial.

quote:

But like I said before, the 45 caliber ammunition was banned in India and the Sudan.

Like I said, you can't read.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Now you're sounding like 500grains, or the way he did. He's still struggling with it I think! Too bad.

400 Nitro Express,

I find that you're being more than a little hypocritical. For example, I've stated "facts" before, as have many other, and you have been awfully quick to ask for cites and back up, whether I'm right or others are right or wrong. But here, asked for the same, you not only deffer to giving cites you take offense to it and become insulting to Will who asked only a reasonable question. Not only that, but there was no "calling you out" that I got from Will's request, unlike yours to me and others, merely an expression of interest.

Take this criticism as you will but this is just one more example where you insist "rules" apply to others but not to you.

Moreover, I don't think there is a person here who doesn't think that your knowledge of the history of double rifles is tops, even encyclopedia like, even if we may differ regarding your opinions, such as cartridge adequacy, or sidelock vs boxlock... How much trouble to back your statement with appropriate citations, eh?

Will,

Say what you want about 500 Grains, but he doesn't hesitate to provide back up for his statements.

JPK