My 460 wby has a penetration of 35 cm into wood with the 500 grain Hornady soft point at 2600 f/s. And it expand to a diameter of 19 mm. It is because that when the Hornady soft point expand it leave so much weight in the expansion. The weight on the expanded bullet was around 350 grains.

Then i have been thinking on this thing. a 585 Nyati/or a 577 Tyrannosaur have a bullet diameter of 14,7 mm and if a bullet with so big diameter expand. Then the penetration isnt good or what

Does it even penetrate good with a solid bullet?

Robgunbuilder,

What penetration do you get with your 585 Nyati and 750 grain woodleigh soft or soild bullets in wood?

I got top to bottom penetration on a cow elephant with a .585 ny at 2250 fps with a solid.

OK,

In response to your e-mail, I think the 750's will open up well but I am looking for a quick expanding light projectile load that I can shoot at pigs & other feral animals all day without worrying about my eyes falling out of my head.

To weeks ago I made some penetration test in very tightly packed magazines that was dry. I think this is similar to wood.

Woodleight 750 grain solid, Norma 204 powder 140 grain, 2020 feet/sec, pentration 67 cm, weight left 100 %. Bullet was as before.

Woodleight 750 grain softnose, Norma 204 powder 140 grain, 2018 feet/sec, pentration 39 cm, weight left 64 %. Bullet was almost flat.

Cast bullet 750 grain, Norma 204 powder 90 grain, 1355 feet/sec, pentration 26 cm, weight left 92 %. Bullet kept its shape. I think this was very good. If it was legal, this load would kill any swedish moose without problem.

JanG

JanG...?

If the woodleigh 750 grain bullet only have a weight left of 64 % and was flat and the velocity was only 2018 f/s. then it isnt any good bullet to load for hunting. If the velocity was over 2200 f/s then the penetration has to be like a 22 long rifle. at 2200 f/s.

There isnt any soft nose bullet who will stay togheter in velocity�s over 2200 f/s. Or is there?

Is it your 585 Nyati that "Vapen Tidningen" have test...?

JanG,

Why would the cast bullet load not be legal where you live.

Mike

I think they have banned lead projectiles in some areas of Europe???

They ought to concentrate on something that his hurting society like poker machines.

In Sweden you are just allowed to hunt with softnose type bullets. No cast bullets and solids just for bird hunting.

No it wasn�t my gun in Vapentidningen but that fellow is living 30 km from me. I�m living in G�tene fd Skaraborgs l�n.

Regarding the 750 grain softnose as hunting bullet. I don�t think it is any problem because an animal isn�t as though as these magazines.

JanG

I frankly don't see much difference in penetration into my California solid oak logs between the 500A2, 460WBY and 585 NYATI. I'd love to see the difference on 470MBOGO's impact sled! If you want penetration try a .50BMG ( It is the only thing I've ever seen which will completely penetrate one of these logs and thats with 650 gr. Bal) Expanding bullets do just that, expand. They all turn into large lead balls and stop about 15 inches(38 cm) into the logs. The interesting thing is the apparant impact. The 585 NYATI is king in the momentum transfer department even over the .50BMG. Of course if I had a softpoint in the .50BMG, It would be superior. However, the .50BMG with 750 gr bullets is only going about 150fps faster than the top load in the NYATI with the same weight bullet, and the .50BMG burns about 80 grs more powder.-Rob

JanG,

I have send you an private message. go and look at your profile...!

Robgunbuilder,

The 50 BMG have more momentum than the 585 Nyati if you load it to 2800-2900 with a 700-750 grain soft nose bullet. What soft nose bullets are there on the market in caliber .510?

Robgunbuilder..!

What velovity do you think is possible to get in a 50 BMG with the Barnes Orginal 700 grain bullet...? if +3000 f/s then it is going to give a lot of momentum.

A 700 Nitro Express haven�t much energy with the 1000 grain bullet the penteration has to be like a 22 Long Rifle and if you load it with 1200 grainers then the velocity stay at around 2000 f/s. So the biggest rifle you can have for hunting is a 585 NYATI or a 577 TYRANNOSAUR. And a 50 BMG would be fun but what is the weight going to be? And a 50 BMG opened up to caliber .600 or .700 will have the energy but what do you think that the weight in a rifle in these calibers would be? at least 35-40 pounds and how is it possible to walk in the forest with them.

Is there any Bonded hunting bullet in caliber .510 that can be used in a 50 BMG.

Rob,

I am still struggling to get my head around how the .50 BMG fires a bullet only 150 fps faster yet it has 80 grains more powder than the .585. Are we all "sure" about the velocities that are obtained with the .585 Nyatti.

Yeah,

PC, Robgunbuilder???

In the 577 Tyrannosaur it has to be 186 grains powder to get 2446 f/s with the woodleigh 750 grain bullet. And JanG load with 140 grains powder and the same bullet and he get just over 2000 f/s in his 585 NYATI.

What velocity is real for the 585 NYATI

PC,

510 compared to 585 is like 268 compared to 308.

So let's call it 264 compared 308 and compare the 264 Winchester and 30/06.

A 30/06 loaded to full potential will do 2850 with 180s and 3100 plus with 150s. That is...around 3200 foot pounds of kineteic energy.

3200 foot pounds of kinetic energy will give a 140 grain 264 bullet 3200 feet / second, which is about what a 264 Winchester can do.

The 30/06 will get its 3200 foot pounds from about 55-60 gains of powder and the 264 Winchester will be around 70-75 grains of powder...that is....about 1/3rd more..

Thus the 30/06 and 264 Winchester will give equal velocity to bullets of equal weight.

In the example above I think the 50 BMG was going 150 f/s faster with same weight bullet as 585 Nyati.

OK, to stick with 264 bore and 30 bore we now need our 264 to go about 200 f/s faster to match the 50 BMG and its 150 f/s faster with same bullet weight as 585 Nyati. 200 f/s faster and not 150 f/s faster because percentage increase is similar.

So what do we need to get a 140 grain 264 up to 3400 f/s

Well, we would at least need a 6.5/300 Wby but even that might not get us there from a 26 inch barrel.

However, without splitting hairs we could finish with 85-90 grains of powder, which is about 50% more than the 30/06.

Is the 50 BMG using roughly 50% more powder than the 585 Nyati??

Mike

[ 05-31-2002, 16:03: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike,

I have seen load data in the ADI book which you probably have that states loads of around 235 grains of powder. So yeah it has 50% more capacity.

PC- M chronograph is a Oehler and both guns were fired at an elevation of 2800 feet above sea level at 72 degrees F. The NYATI hit 2509 fps with a 750 gr woodleigh softpoint lit off by 162 grs of RL-15. I did not correct for the elevation. The .50 BMG load was 242 grs of 24N29 at 2685fps and a 750 gr monolithic bore-rider. The .50 BMG can drive a 650 gr bullet slightlyl over 3000fps with H50BMG and perhaps you can go slightly faster than 2685fps with a non-bore rider bullet of 750 gr weight ( remember this is a 1000yrd target load, not a max velocity load), however, I suspect you will get bolt lift problems. I've never seen a .50 BMG shoot a 750 gr bullet at velocities higher than 2775 fps without clear overpressure signs.. Thus, I'll stick with my observation that with the same weight bullet the NYATI will be only about 150-200 fps slower than the .50 BMG. On that basis, I believe that the Nyati is a very efficient cartridge at driving a big heavy bullet pretty darn fast. Nevertheless, it sure isn't in the same league as the .50BMG due to lack of ballistic coefficient.-Rob

[ 05-31-2002, 20:28: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

It really is an efficient cartridge Rob I have to agree with you on that.

Rob how far is the .577 T-Rex in front of the Nyatti powerwise??

PC...!

You can get 2700 f/s with the 577 TYRANNOSAUR with a 26" barrel.

Robgunbuilder...!

Think about the Barnes Orginal 700 grain in the 50 BMG. It is much shorter than the V-MAX bullets...! What velocity do you think it is possible to get with them in the 50 BMG? What do you think is an MAX load in the 585 NYATI what velocity?

And a last question. Do you think that MOMENTUM is "Stopping Power"??? (I think that)

Skipped alot of this thread but agree with Rob.

Also,not sure if it was mentioned above but remember the 50 Bmg's use barrels a lot longer than the 585's.

You cut 6" or more off the 50BMG barrel and then see how fast it is going

Karl.

I've got access to a 20" 50 bmg, with 750 and 630 gr loads.. and I am building a 23" nyati. what do you want tested? I am telling you this, though, i'll be tons more interested in doing 630 grains as I bought a load of them for .25 each. and each shot will cost me about 2 bucks with the barnes.
so far, here's the story on 750 gr barnes. with RL22 185gr, we are seeing ~2150. I am going to misquote, but a powder with 130 gr load was posted at 2200+. I know it's not the same powder, but it's close enough for arguing.
I think Rick Jamison is the latest writer (can't really respect someone who takes glamor shots with a gun in shooting position without ear protection) that is buying into the short/fat idea. The winchester short mags are basically his exactly loads and rounds. The 585, in comparision to the 50 bmg is short and fat. and throws a short fat bullet. It's not designed to hit a jeep at 1000 yards, or more, it's designed to STOP the big nasty that thinks you are the root of it's pain.
It's like comparing a 10ga double to a 300win. The 300 would come apart at 10 feet.. but the 10 gauge couldn't even REACH 130 yards.

Interesting thread though, as it brings up sectional den. and momentum. Just my personal pref, but I like guns I can shot w/o a muzzle brake. WHEW the speed of recoil on a 50 without a brake.....

I made the following comparison just for a bit of fun between the 50BMG and the 585's for stopping big game.

The 585 has around 30% greater surface area than the 50BMG but 25 % less kinetic energy.

A 470 nitro has around 30% greater surface area than the 416 Wby but 25% less kinetic energy as well.

Of the two we know plenty about (470 and 416)
Which is the better stopper on Big game then?

The 470

However the 416 kills quicker on light game and reaches out further etc.

Karl.

I have to admit that I did not correct for barrel length as my .50 BMG has a 32 incher and the Nyati is a 28 incher. Of course this would make the difference much smaller. -Rob

Rob...!

I have not think about the barrel lenght. If the 50 BMG had a 28 inch barrel then it make about the same velocitys as the 585 NYATI.

Would it be safe to say from Karls comparison of the .470 & .416 that the .585 will be a better performer on elephant out to 100 yards than the .50 BMG??

PC...!

Caliber .585 Nyati will have a better effect on elephant than the 50 BMG because the NYATI have a bigger diameter than the 50 BMG and you only use solid bullets for elephant.

That seems easy to understand OK, I beleive that projectiles that whip through the target as a .50 BMG would carry much of there energy out the other side, whil the .585 would leave more in the target due to it's increasd surface area and thus slowing up quicker.

The theory of carrying energy out the other side of an animal, while much talked about, is not valid. As a bullet loses velocity in an animal, it expends its energy inside the animal.

So let's do an example.

If I shoot a 'roo with a 30-30 pushing a 150 grain bullet at 2200 fps and it does not exit the 'roo, then the entire energy of the bullet was transferred to the 'roo.

If I shoot a 'roo with a 300 ultramagnificentmagnum pushing a 150 grain bullet at 3600 fps, and the bullet exits the 'roo still travelling at 1000 fps, I have transferred more energy to the 'roo than I did with the 30-30, even though the bullet exited.

I get your point 500, but it is kind of hard to get my head around. No doubt your right. So you feel the .50 BMG would transfer more nergy on target than the .585 or is your theory applicable to the same calibre ie. .308 to .308 ??